Drafting Broken

Look, I don't care that I get branded an a$$hole.

It's simple. Fantasy sports make billions (especially football). There is a very standard way to do list drafts (what we do here is called everywhere else), and we don't follow it for some absurd backwards reasoning.

Why we don't follow STANDARD draft protocol, I have no clue. That's all I am trying to push for.

Example, this was months ago in a theme league. Visick and I ended up with the exact same picks 1, 2 and 4. He got all 3 of those players, I got 0. In a list draft the way it should work, I would have gotten 1 of those, my #2 at least.

I've never expected to get all my picks, that's absurd. What I want to see is drafting work the way it works everywhere else, which helps balance the amount of players all players get. Instead of some players getting 7 picks and another getting 20.

Anyone who is against that has no real valid reason posted. Just I don't want to learn a new way, or losing their advantage over the newer guys. Those are not valid.

Look, I don't care that I get branded an a$$hole.

It's simple. Fantasy sports make billions (especially football). There is a very standard way to do list drafts (what we do here is called everywhere else), and we don't follow it for some absurd backwards reasoning.

Why we don't follow STANDARD draft protocol, I have no clue. That's all I am trying to push for.

Example, this was months ago in a theme league. Visick and I ended up with the exact same picks 1, 2 and 4. He got all 3 of those players, I got 0. In a list draft the way it should work, I would have gotten 1 of those, my #2 at least.

I've never expected to get all my picks, that's absurd. What I want to see is drafting work the way it works everywhere else, which helps balance the amount of players all players get. Instead of some players getting 7 picks and another getting 20.

Anyone who is against that has no real valid reason posted. Just I don't want to learn a new way, or losing their advantage over the newer guys. Those are not valid.

Geekor,

You are repeating your points and personal attacks from your previous post. I responded to those points and personal attacks, but you neglected to address them. So in response to this post, I will re-post that response; it also well addresses the points you make above.

I look forward to your actually addressing my arguments this time.

Geekor,

This is a friendly forum; there is no need to bring hostility or profanity into it, particularly since younger participants read them. That being said, I will address all of your points in a friendly, profanity-free manner.

1. Neither I nor LMBombers said anyone wanted to "get all their picks". Nowhere in our posts did we "break things off" to that "tangent." LMBombers merely asserted--as you, I, and everybody knows--that no draft system will allow you to get "all the KEY players" a player wants...that is a significant difference.

2. As you yourself note, the "probability is low" that one player can get all 25 picks while another can get 0. We can both agree that that hardly ever happens, if ever at all. So asserting that that makes the system "inherently flawed" is using a nightmare scenario, which you yourself admits is improbable, as a way of completely disparaging a system which avoids that scenario a very high percentage of the time, if not always. Being "flawed" in this immensely low probability way in no way makes it "plain wrong."

3. Neither LMBombers nor I necessarily said we wouldn't move to a new drafting system. We were merely stating that liking the current system, and using knowledge in that current system to (hopefully) succeed in that system does not mean the manager is trying to gain an unfair advantage in that system (or "game it"); he or she is merely playing it as it is meant to be played. As I added, this would be the case in all drafting systems that were not entirely random. Even the system you proffer in your post would favor players with greater knowledge of the game than players without; that is a fact.
That being said, liking the current system and preferring it over a suggested new one does not necessarily make one "lazy" as you say. Many current managers just like the current system and the particular challenges it offers; it is part of the game they enjoy, and they would prefer it over suggested new drafting systems they consider inferior. That does not make them lazy; it makes them discerning. I, for one, would welcome a superior drafting system, but only if it was truly superior to our present system I sincerely like.

4. The system you offer is interesting. However, you don't specify how it could guarantee that all players get "a good portion of their draft card" or "some high picks" as you say. Since most managers will still most likely target the same good players, your suggested system of "placing the player you care about 'most high' " will most likely (if not definitely) run into the same "problem" our current one faces--some managers will be very happy and get the key players they placed "most high," and some will be very disappointed and will not.

I look forward to further friendly discussions with you on this matter and others, as well as playing against you in our current drafting system or whatever superior drafting system happens to arise.

(the above post responded to Geekor's Thu. Aug 23, 10:32 pm post that can be found on page 2 of this forum)

Here it is, Geekor,

I look forward to your actually addressing these arguments this time.

Also, what exactly is this "list draft" system you speak of, how would it work for stratomatic, and how would it improve the "problems" you feel are so prevalent in the current system?...I also look forward to your answering these questions as well.

l.strether,

Though I don't know why I have to rebuttal you posts. I have been working 12-16 hours days over the last 2+ weeks, including weekends. not everyone has time for a good rebuttal.

If you make up a roster of 25 players you would like that fits under the salary cap it is virtually guaranteed that no matter if you are in an autodraft or a live draft you will not get all the key players you were planning on. There are not 12 Brandon Moss' or 12 Miggy Cabreras to go around. When the best players are drafted in most cases the next best just isn't as good.

Remember what Tom Hanks said. "There is no in baseball."

This part is the tangent. It's a facetious way of arguing a point. What if I said, "you know who else like the current draft system. Hitler! So you must be a Nazi for liking this!"

You understand right? No one ever said they expect to get all their players, or the best ones. Taking it off in a tangent away from that, trying to say that is what people want, isn't a way to argue anything.

And the fact you are arguing this, without even knowing how drafts run 99% of places other than SOM, goes to show exactly the issue here with people against it. They don't even realize how a list draft is supposed to work!

As for point 2, probability is low, but you don't need to miss all 25. Take my example of what happened in that 2009 league recently with Visick and I. What if someone missed out on their first 8 picks, and all 8 went to their division rival. Say they are both in someplace extreme, like Progressive, and he received all RH's for those 8 picks. Would he have a chance to survive? Most likely, No.

In the way the draft should work, is basically like waivers work. You miss your first pick, your 2nd moves to the top. Again that's gone your 3rd moves to the top. That way people would get at least some of their top picks. Right now what if you miss your top 5? You're gonna have a bad time.

And as to 3, there are many Vets who know where to slot each player so as to get the majority of them. Any newer player has very little chance of knowing this information. That information is key is having a good draft. That information is where the game within the game comes into play. There have been multiple threads on this in the ATG forum in the past. Many of the vets there (not as much in 20xx) do not want the system changed and lose that valuable advantage they have in getting whom they want.

As to 4, it wouldn't guarantee anything. What it would do is make losing a high % of your top picks less likely, or likely at all. It wold also make the likelihood of someone getting most of their picks small as well. It would balance the scales, so to speak.

l.strether,

Though I don't know why I have to rebuttal you posts. I have been working 12-16 hours days over the last 2+ weeks, including weekends. not everyone has time for a good rebuttal.

If you make up a roster of 25 players you would like that fits under the salary cap it is virtually guaranteed that no matter if you are in an autodraft or a live draft you will not get all the key players you were planning on. There are not 12 Brandon Moss' or 12 Miggy Cabreras to go around. When the best players are drafted in most cases the next best just isn't as good.

Remember what Tom Hanks said. "There is no in baseball."

This part is the tangent. It's a facetious way of arguing a point. What if I said, "you know who else like the current draft system. Hitler! So you must be a Nazi for liking this!"

You understand right? No one ever said they expect to get all their players, or the best ones. Taking it off in a tangent away from that, trying to say that is what people want, isn't a way to argue anything.

And the fact you are arguing this, without even knowing how drafts run 99% of places other than SOM, goes to show exactly the issue here with people against it. They don't even realize how a list draft is supposed to work!

As for point 2, probability is low, but you don't need to miss all 25. Take my example of what happened in that 2009 league recently with Visick and I. What if someone missed out on their first 8 picks, and all 8 went to their division rival. Say they are both in someplace extreme, like Progressive, and he received all RH's for those 8 picks. Would he have a chance to survive? Most likely, No.

In the way the draft should work, is basically like waivers work. You miss your first pick, your 2nd moves to the top. Again that's gone your 3rd moves to the top. That way people would get at least some of their top picks. Right now what if you miss your top 5? You're gonna have a bad time.

And as to 3, there are many Vets who know where to slot each player so as to get the majority of them. Any newer player has very little chance of knowing this information. That information is key is having a good draft. That information is where the game within the game comes into play. There have been multiple threads on this in the ATG forum in the past. Many of the vets there (not as much in 20xx) do not want the system changed and lose that valuable advantage they have in getting whom they want.

As to 4, it wouldn't guarantee anything. What it would do is make losing a high % of your top picks less likely, or likely at all. It wold also make the likelihood of someone getting most of their picks small as well. It would balance the scales, so to speak.

Firstly, the quote from LMBombers you include does not go off on a tangent about getting "all your players." It specifically says "If you make up a roster of 25 players you would like that fits under the salary cap it is virtually guaranteed that no matter if you are in an autodraft or a live draft you will not get all the KEY PLAYERS you were counting on." He says KEY PLAYERS here, not ALL PLAYERS...anyone can see that. So he did not go off on the tangent you mention at all.

2. Whether or not I or other players "know how a list system is supposed to work" is irrelevant It assumes SOM must use a list system like previously used list systems to actually succeed, which it does not. You need to show how working more like previously used list systems would actually improve SOM's current drafting system.

The system you suggest--"You miss your first pick, your second moves to the top. Again that 's gone, your 3rd moves to the top"--does not do so, as it would face the exact "problems" you attribute to our current system: If different managers pick the same players with their top three picks, some managers may not get any of their top picks. . There is no way your proposed system could guarantee a player one of their top three picks if this very possible scenario occurs. He or she would be as unhappy as Radagast was with the current system in his most recent post...and he was angry about not getting his top two picks.

3. As I said in my previous post, I agree that managers with greater knowledge of the current drafting system and of the players available will have an advantage over managers with less of that knowledge. However, that would also be the case with the system you provide and (most likely) all other non-random drafting systems. In your proposed system, a manager who knows how to more smartly list his or her picks is also going to more likely succeed than the "noobs" who do not. In your system of listing your picks, smarter veteran players are still going to more successfully "slot" their picks than the less knowledgable "noobs."

4. You say your system would make "losing a high % of your top picks less likely, or likely at all." However, you fail to explain how your proposed system would do so. As I already showed in my second point, a manager drafting in your proposed system could very easily miss out on their top three picks. So you need to actually explain, in better detail, how your proposed list system would actually improve on our current system by actually making "losing a high % of your top picks less likely."

I look forward to your response and to playing you in another league sometime.

These posts are too long for my ADHD. Can someone tell me whom is winning the pissing contest?

Okay I have calmed down, and I apologize for my outburst. I was really disappointed in this draft. After waiting a month for the league to fill and being so excited I received 8 out of 25 players. That was the worst ever for me. I know I can fix my team in waivers and free agency. But I just want to respond to what one person wrote.

Someone wrote, "

Just think about it; how many of the 'top' picked players that you wanted would you have gotten with a live draft?

"

I might not have gotten my number one, but after missing on him in a live draft I would have at least gotten my number two. And it is not a question of top players but players who are a good value for what kind of team you want to try and field.

Okay I have calmed down, and I apologize for my outburst. I was really disappointed in this draft. After waiting a month for the league to fill and being so excited I received 8 out of 25 players. That was the worst ever for me. I know I can fix my team in waivers and free agency. But I just want to respond to what one person wrote.

Someone wrote, "

Just think about it; how many of the 'top' picked players that you wanted would you have gotten with a live draft?

"

I might not have gotten my number one, but after missing on him in a live draft I would have at least gotten my number two. And it is not a question of top players but players who are a good value for what kind of team you want to try and field.

I'm sorry for your disappointments, Radagast, and I'm glad you feel better.

However, a live draft would not have guaranteed that you got your second most preferred player, unless you were picking first or second. if you were picking third through twelfth (a keen possibility), other managers could have scooped up your first two choices before you even got to pick. If you draft at the bottom (8th-12th), you could actually miss out on your first 5 (or more) preferred players in a live draft.

Also, if it's not a "question of top players," why were you so upset in your previous post about not getting your first two picks?...just asking.

Anyway, good luck (in your current post-draft and future live drafts), and I hope to play you in a league sometime.

In a live draft, I pick 12th. Eleven guys make their pick and then I pick any player other than those 11 from the entire set.

In an autodraft I get to list one guy and if someone got him ahead of me I get the first guy at that primary position that noone picked in their 25 picks.

Big difference.

Anyone who is against that has no real valid reason posted. Just I don't want to learn a new way, or losing their advantage over the newer guys. Those are not valid.

Actually, I pointed out earlier that because the system isn't perfect, it actually makes the frenzy after waivers a lot of fun. In other words, the system works for most of us because arguably the most enjoyable part of the game is the frenzy.

Now you may not think this is a good reason, but it is valid.

I play duplicate bridge, which uses a master point system. It's similar to SOM's (long lost) manager rating system in that it rewards those who play a lot. Master points is a terrible rating system for rating players. If player A plays ten times more than player B but only wins half as much, he will accumulate five times the number of master points. And yet it's a great system because it encourages players to play more. Both strong and weak players alike "chase" master points and thus play more bridge. While those who would like an accurate, better system will say how horrible master points are, the system works because it's fun.

Is the present SOM system ideal? Of course not. But it is fun for a lot (most?) of us.

Despite my defense of it, I would like to see it improved this way. If you miss one of your picks, your chance of winning the next tie is increased (and increased each time you miss). This increased chance is reduced when you win a tie. This would maintain the "fun" of the present system and yet make it a bit more fair. It's far from perfect since it will only help a manager who "ties" a lot of his picks and not one who simply picks key players too low.

PS. A snake draft is no panacea either. For example, in my recent fantasy football draft, who I was able to get was largely dictated by my draft position--and not just for the initial picks. For example, I wanted Demaryius Thomas but unless I was willing to draft him way too high (12th or 13th), I was unable to get him since he was long gone by my next pick. So here's another valid reason for the present system: it gives you a chance for every player.