why no federal league seasons -- or are there?

Moderator: Palmtana

  • Author
  • Message
Offline

ClowntimeIsOver

  • Posts: 274
  • Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:00 pm

why no federal league seasons -- or are there?

PostMon Nov 25, 2013 12:38 am

the federal league was several hundred players being Curt Flood 50 years early

of course it got stomped out of existence and often led to blacklisting

Benny Kauff was called the “Ty Cobb of the Feds.” TO THIS DAY HE HAS THE 36TH ALL-TIME HIGHEST CAREER OPS+ (149), a great stat for comparing players from different leagues and eras. His line in 1914 for the Indianapolis Hoosiers is so ATG-worthy it's unforgivable he doesn't have a card:

.370 .447 .534 .981 in 667 PAs

He had a great arm as an OF, too: ranks 72nd in DP as a CF, in a shortened career

But although "allowed" to return to the non-federal-league majors, he was bounced from baseball the minute it was possible . . . by that unlovable old curmudgeoun, K.M. Landis:

"In December of that year, however, Kauff and his brother were implicated in a car theft. According to the criminal complaint, Kauff and two of his employees, James Shields and James Whalen, sold a car to Ignatz Engel after stealing it and giving it a new paint job.[14] Kauff adamantly denied the charges, claiming he didn't know the car was stolen.[12] Specifically, he claimed that Shields and Whalen had given him what turned out to be a false bill of sale, thus leading him to believe the car had been acquired legally.[14] After only 55 games in 1920, the Giants traded him to Toronto of the International League. As it turned out, he would never play another major league game.[7]
Acquittal and banishment

"Kauff was slated to return to the Giants in 1921, but Baseball Commissioner Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis suspended Kauff until his auto theft case was resolved. The case finally went to trial on May 10, 1921. Kauff argued that he had not only been deceived by crooked employees, but also presented evidence that showed he had been eating dinner with his wife when he was alleged to have stolen the car. The jury deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting Kauff on May 13, 1921.[15]

"Nonetheless, Landis refused to reinstate him. In a letter to Kauff, Landis said that even though he was acquitted, the trial revealed serious questions about his character and reputation that would raise questions about baseball's integrity if he were ever allowed to play again. He also told baseball writer Fred Lieb that he personally believed Kauff was guilty, and claimed his acquittal "smelled to high heaven" and was "one of the worst miscarriages of justice that ever came under my observation." [12] According to Kauff's attorney, Emil Fuchs (who would go on to own the Boston Braves), another factor in Landis' refusal to reinstate Kauff was that Kauff tried to compensate Engel for the purchase price of the car after finding out it was stolen--something which Kauff had done on Fuchs' advice.[15] Kauff appealed his banishment in court on the basis of his acquittal, but to no avail.[7] On January 17, 1922, he lost his appeal to a higher court.[16]"
Offline

Valen

  • Posts: 2503
  • Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: why no federal league seasons -- or are there?

PostMon Nov 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Benny Kauff was called the “Ty Cobb of the Feds.” TO THIS DAY HE HAS THE 36TH ALL-TIME HIGHEST CAREER OPS+ (149)

Someone had to excel in the league, just as someone has to excel in any AAA league.

According to Wikipedia
The Federal League of Base Ball Clubs, known simply as the Federal League, was an American professional baseball league that operated as a "third major league", in competition with the established National and American Leagues, from 1914 to 1915.


So the real question is what percentage of MLB players defected and participated in this new league during that 2 year run?
Was it enough to really say it was comparable to AL and NL quality? I suspect it was not.

On the other hand
The league itself and many sports writers considered it a major league during its existence; organized baseball recognized its major league status in 1968

If MLB officially recognizes it as a major league....
Though that recognition may have been politically motivated.

I would think if one wanted to make a case for inclusion of seasons from the Federal league one should also post a list of well known players who played in it. I would also want to know what percentage of the players participating in the Federal League were former MLB players and what percentage were guys off the street. And of those who participated it would be interesting to see a significant number of listings comparing their seasons just prior to participation and just after to what they did in the Federal league. A small difference would indicate the Federal League competition was similar in quality while large differences would indicate the performance was due to inferior competition.

To be clear not speaking for or against the idea. Just throwing out some thoughts on it for discussion.
Offline

ClowntimeIsOver

  • Posts: 274
  • Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:00 pm

Re: why no federal league seasons -- or are there?

PostMon Nov 25, 2013 11:25 pm

Valen wrote:
Benny Kauff was called the “Ty Cobb of the Feds.” TO THIS DAY HE HAS THE 36TH ALL-TIME HIGHEST CAREER OPS+ (149)

Someone had to excel in the league, just as someone has to excel in any AAA league.


He was in the non-fed "majors" for all but his two years in the FL

you don't get all-time status in career OPS+ (a very unforgiving statistic) by 2 years in AAA

and WHY -- in not-PC 1968, among BASEBALL GUYS (!!) -- would inclusion of the FL in the majors be "politically motivated"?

the FL is an official major league, and that's that -- why do we include 19th century players? seriously -- just because they were in the NL? WTF is the 19th century NL?
Offline

dukie98

  • Posts: 465
  • Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:30 pm

Re: why no federal league seasons -- or are there?

PostTue Nov 26, 2013 11:52 am

Kauff may have been called the "Ty Cobb of the Federal League," but no one mistook him for the "Ty Cobb of the National League" after the Federal League folded. After two very good years in the Federal League, and even though he was in the prime of his career, he hit a modest .264 the next season. Kauff played only three full-time seasons in the majors, other than the two Federal League seasons, so those numbers certainly skewed his career totals. His OPS+ with the Giants was 136 -- very good, but not in the top 100 all time (and without any decline phase to his career, as he was out of baseball by age 30).

None of the hall of famers from that era were selected based on how they dominated the Federal League-- at most, there were a handful of players at the very beginning or very end of their careers. Several other players who were among the Federal League's elite did nothing of consequence in the majors. The leading power hitter, Dutch Zwilling, played for the Cubs the next year at age 27, went 6 for 59 with one homer, and never played again. Dave Davenport was the best pitcher in the FL in 2015, but was a below-average pitcher with the Browns for the next four seasons, and never had an ERA+ over 100.

When MLB formally recognized the Federal League as a "major" league, it also recognized several other leagues (such as the 1884 Union Association) that no one would suggest are on a par with the AL and NL. The fact that it was recognized as such after the fact doesn't mean that we should treat them as being equivalent in terms of talent level. I don't see any reason to include Federal League stats in ATG, as they were compiled against substandard competition. That said, if ATG wanted to include one of Kauff's seasons with the Giants, that would be fine.
Offline

Valen

  • Posts: 2503
  • Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: why no federal league seasons -- or are there?

PostTue Nov 26, 2013 4:26 pm

I was just trying to discuss with an open mind the proposition of Federal league players. Sorry if I upset you clowntime by doing so.

Kauff may have been called the "Ty Cobb of the Federal League," but no one mistook him for the "Ty Cobb of the National League" after the Federal League folded. After two very good years in the Federal League, and even though he was in the prime of his career, he hit a modest .264 the next season.

This would seem to suggest that at least in Kauff's case the amazing season was the result of facing inferior pitching.
A high OPS+ does not mean you are a great player. It just means you put up great numbers compared to the others in the league. If those others are subpar hitters you are essentially just appear to be a big fish because you are in a small pond. But that does not change that you would be an average or small fish in a truly competitive pond. A 149 OPS+ only means Kauff was 49 points better than the average hitter in the league. But if the average hitter in that league were little league hitters then it means nothing. Just how much it means is demonstrated by what he was able to do after the Federal league folded and he was forced to face true major league quality pitching and be compared with true major league hitters. His BA went from .370 his rookie season in FL and .432 his second season to .264 in his next season in a true major league. Logically that was his third season when he should have been hitting his prime and his career taking off. But instead he was exposed as not being belonging in the same discussion with the greats like Cobb.

Thus based on the evidence so far I think I would prefer not having any Federal League seasons included.
But I will keep an open mind if you wish to offer up relevant evidence of equivalency.

Return to Strat-O-Matic Baseball: All-Time Greats

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests