Relief after Starting

We're still faced with the question, If Sensational 60's mystery league uses Bullpen V2 as do the current sets, then, why would a Sandy Koufax relieve at F9 after resting two games after throwing 68 pitches and Clay Buchholz relieve at F0 after starting the previous game?

It's logical that Koufax might enter as an F9 and Buchholz as an F0, but, it's not certain why.

1)Koufax had two days rest
2)He threw 68 pitches in his previous start.
3)He is a starter/reliever, not a starter
4)He was assigned a role as a LH specialist.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss any of these reasons, although, more than likely #3 is the reason.

Now, if it had been a 14-inning game, similar to this one involving Buchholz, in which HAL ran out of pitchers and had to bring in a starter, and Koufax had not been assigned a LH Specialist role, would Koufax have come in as an F9 or an F0?

The likely answer is "F9", if assigned role has nothing to do with determining fatigue level. But, if this scenario does cause Koufax to come in partially fatigued, or fully fatigued, then we know "assigned role" may, indeed, have an impact on fatigue level.

I think the answer to a question I have is 'kind of' answered here but if anyone could verify, I'd appreciate it.

If I put dual rated S/R pitcher into the rotation and he is not assigned a bullpen role, can I assume that HAL will only use him in relief under extraordinary circumstances?

I think the answer to a question I have is 'kind of' answered here but if anyone could verify, I'd appreciate it.

If I put dual rated S/R pitcher into the rotation and he is not assigned a bullpen role, can I assume that HAL will only use him in relief under extraordinary circumstances?

Yes. As long as I have had a pitcher in the rotation, they have never come in relief unless it was a very long extra inning game.

Of course, the problem with "proving" a negative is you can never be 100 percent sure.

It is my understanding that if you have a starter only, he will not come in to relief unless forced to by hal because he is the last pitcher available other than the ones in ur assigned starting rotation.

If he is a starter/reliever, he will also not be used in relief if he is in ur assigned starting rotation.

If he is a starter/reliever and not in your assigned starting pitching, then he will be used as a reliever anytime a situation arises that you haven't assigned a relief pitching role to.

so it goes something like this...

If your pitchers are as follows:

1. Bob Bobby - starter (9)
2. Rob Robby - starter (9)
3. Job Jobby - starter (9)
4. Cob Cobby - starter (8)

5. Bill Billy - starter (7) reliever (3)

6. Frank Franky - reliever (4)
7. Spank Spanky - reliever (3)
8. Rank Ranky - reliever (2)
9. Mank Manky - reliever (1)

Using the ATG VII, 1-4 are assigned as your rotation, 5 is assigned no role, 6 is your blowout/set up/middle reliever, 7 is lefty specialist, 8 is righty specialist, and 9 is your closer... then ...

1-4 will never relieve as hal will keep your last reliever in even if he is a F0
6-9 will only relieve if after hal decides to remove your starter the situation is exactly what their assigned roles are.

Now the important part...

5 will come in in any situation where once hal decides to remove your starter a) none of the situations that 6-9 are assigned to is happening or b) he is the last reliever you have in the bullpen.

This is what I understand.

Now if one of your 4 starters has a relief rating, so say Bob Bobby is a starter (9) reliever (5), and his previous start he came out with a low pitch count and therefore is not fatigued during the current game, and can pitch a certain number of pitches in a relief role without becoming fatigued for his next start, and the assigned roles given to your other relievers is not occurring (or if they are occurring but every reliever you have is fatigued and therefore the reliever you assigned that role to and also the other relievers who would take over first would enter the game fatigued as well), and your starter/reliever (the 5 guy) is also fatigued, then Bill Billy would come in for some relief.

In other words, and this is just a guess, hal will use whatever pitcher you have that can enter the game at the time who is at the time not fatigued. Once the starter is removed, hal will look at all your other pitchers, decide first to ignore the pitchers who are fatigued, then next look at the situation and try to find a pitcher assigned to that role, if he finds one then that pitcher enters, if he cant then he looks for another pitcher, first he negates the pitchers who are assigned a different role that hasn't occurred yet and sees if there is still a pitcher available, if there is he enters, if there isn't then hal goes back to the pitchers assigned a different role and ignores that role and brings in one of those pitchers.if they are all fatigued then hal will finally look at your 4 starters and see if any are not fatigued and can relieve, if yes, then he brings in that pitcher for the number of pitches allowed before he will become fatigued for his next start.

so...

starter taken out...
look at relievers...
negate fatigued relievers...
look at situation bring in reliever given that role, if available he enters...
if none... look for unassigned reliever, if available he enters...
if none...look for any unfatigued reliever even if role is different, if available he enters
if no relief pitchers are available because all are fatigued then look for an unfatigued starter with a relief rating bring him in for the number of pitches he can pitch b4 he becomes fatigued for his next start.
after that bring in relievers who are fatigued.

This is all guesswork but from what I have seen with the games I have been involved in I think it is somewhat accurate. If others know more let us know.

Scott

I will be able to contribute to this discussion in my current season. I am using sonny gray thru the per game starting pitcher option, not in the rotation. he is also assigned to a bullpen roll. I am very curious to see how he is utilized between starts.

It is my understanding that if you have a starter only, he will not come in to relief unless forced to by hal because he is the last pitcher available other than the ones in ur assigned starting rotation.

If he is a starter/reliever, he will also not be used in relief if he is in ur assigned starting rotation.

If he is a starter/reliever and not in your assigned starting pitching, then he will be used as a reliever anytime a situation arises that you haven't assigned a relief pitching role to.

so it goes something like this...

If your pitchers are as follows:

1. Bob Bobby - starter (9)
2. Rob Robby - starter (9)
3. Job Jobby - starter (9)
4. Cob Cobby - starter (8)

5. Bill Billy - starter (7) reliever (3)

6. Frank Franky - reliever (4)
7. Spank Spanky - reliever (3)
8. Rank Ranky - reliever (2)
9. Mank Manky - reliever (1)

Using the ATG VII, 1-4 are assigned as your rotation, 5 is assigned no role, 6 is your blowout/set up/middle reliever, 7 is lefty specialist, 8 is righty specialist, and 9 is your closer... then ...

1-4 will never relieve as hal will keep your last reliever in even if he is a F0
6-9 will only relieve if after hal decides to remove your starter the situation is exactly what their assigned roles are.

Now the important part...

5 will come in in any situation where once hal decides to remove your starter a) none of the situations that 6-9 are assigned to is happening or b) he is the last reliever you have in the bullpen.

This is what I understand.

Now if one of your 4 starters has a relief rating, so say Bob Bobby is a starter (9) reliever (5), and his previous start he came out with a low pitch count and therefore is not fatigued during the current game, and can pitch a certain number of pitches in a relief role without becoming fatigued for his next start, and the assigned roles given to your other relievers is not occurring (or if they are occurring but every reliever you have is fatigued and therefore the reliever you assigned that role to and also the other relievers who would take over first would enter the game fatigued as well), and your starter/reliever (the 5 guy) is also fatigued, then Bill Billy would come in for some relief.

In other words, and this is just a guess, hal will use whatever pitcher you have that can enter the game at the time who is at the time not fatigued. Once the starter is removed, hal will look at all your other pitchers, decide first to ignore the pitchers who are fatigued, then next look at the situation and try to find a pitcher assigned to that role, if he finds one then that pitcher enters, if he cant then he looks for another pitcher, first he negates the pitchers who are assigned a different role that hasn't occurred yet and sees if there is still a pitcher available, if there is he enters, if there isn't then hal goes back to the pitchers assigned a different role and ignores that role and brings in one of those pitchers.if they are all fatigued then hal will finally look at your 4 starters and see if any are not fatigued and can relieve, if yes, then he brings in that pitcher for the number of pitches allowed before he will become fatigued for his next start.

so...

starter taken out...
look at relievers...
negate fatigued relievers...
look at situation bring in reliever given that role, if available he enters...
if none... look for unassigned reliever, if available he enters...
if none...look for any unfatigued reliever even if role is different, if available he enters
if no relief pitchers are available because all are fatigued then look for an unfatigued starter with a relief rating bring him in for the number of pitches he can pitch b4 he becomes fatigued for his next start.
after that bring in relievers who are fatigued.

This is all guesswork but from what I have seen with the games I have been involved in I think it is somewhat accurate. If others know more let us know.

Scott

Question?-

I'm in a Finals series and just finished Game 5 which went 15 innings.
Carlton, who was brought into the game in the 13th inning with a F4 fatigue rating was scheduled to be the SP in Game 6 of the series.
Should I assume HAL will shorten his stamina in Game 6? My only other alternative is one of my SP/RP'rs who have been used solely in the bullpen.
Any advice?

You're probably right, based on the fact that Bullpen V2 only is used for 1990's and beyond.

Bullpen V2 is used in all mystery game leagues, including the 60s.

You seem very knowledgeable on this subject:

Question?-

I'm in a 60 Mystery Finals series and just finished Game 5 which went 15 innings.
Carlton, who was brought into the game in the 13th inning with a F4 fatigue rating was scheduled to be the SP in Game 6 of the series.
Should I assume HAL will shorten his stamina in Game 6? My only other alternative is one of my SP/RP'rs (Giusti) who has been used solely in the bullpen.
Any advice?

Well, from my naked eyes, it seems to me that the stamina of a starting pitcher is not influenced by the way he pitched in the relief earlier in the series. The F-rating is maintained at 9 for roughly how long I expect it to be, and the F-rating starts to get lower where I expect it to get lower.


BUT

I have intriguing data, and I wonder if other owners could come up with these data.

I played a full season with 2 *SP who pitched every 4 games and never came in relief, and with 3 (non*)SP who would start every 6 games and were therefore available for one or two relief appearances

This is the rough sketch of my rotation: (to look at my team: http://365.strat-o-matic.com/team/1412525)

1st*SP
Bibby
2*SP
Hall (Kison available to relieve)
1st *SP (Kison available to relieve)
Kison (Bibby available to relieve
2*SP (Bibby available to relieve)
Bibby (Hall available to relieve)
1st *SP (Hall available to relieve)

Hall made 8 relief appearences; Bibby 7 relief appearences and Kison only 4 relief appearences.

Here is the intriguing data:

I calculated the Run Allowed average (similar to ERA, but based on runs (simple) and not limited to earned runs).

In starts where the three amigos did NOT relieve in the preceding games:
Hall 4.74
Bibby 3.39
Kison 3.60

In starts where the three amigos DID relieve in the preceding games:
Hall: 9.77 (38 runs in 35 innings, average start 5.83 innings)
Bibby: 5.33 (31 runs in 52.1 innings, average start 7.5 innings)
Kison: 4.38 (13 runs in 26.2 innings, average start 6.5 innings)

This said, there is perhaps a bias working on. Perhaps the games they were needed in relief were against the top offenses of the league, most likely the very same teams they were facing in their respective upcoming starts...We would need more data to check....

Well, from my naked eyes, it seems to me that the stamina of a starting pitcher is not influenced by the way he pitched in the relief earlier in the series. The F-rating is maintained at 9 for roughly how long I expect it to be, and the F-rating starts to get lower where I expect it to get lower.


BUT

I have intriguing data, and I wonder if other owners could come up with these data.

I played a full season with 2 *SP who pitched every 4 games and never came in relief, and with 3 (non*)SP who would start every 6 games and were therefore available for one or two relief appearances

This is the rough sketch of my rotation: (to look at my team: http://365.strat-o-matic.com/team/1412525)

1st*SP
Bibby
2*SP
Hall (Kison available to relieve)
1st *SP (Kison available to relieve)
Kison (Bibby available to relieve
2*SP (Bibby available to relieve)
Bibby (Hall available to relieve)
1st *SP (Hall available to relieve)

Hall made 8 relief appearences; Bibby 7 relief appearences and Kison only 4 relief appearences.

Here is the intriguing data:

I calculated the Run Allowed average (similar to ERA, but based on runs (simple) and not limited to earned runs).

In starts where the three amigos did NOT relieve in the preceding games:
Hall 4.74
Bibby 3.39
Kison 3.60

In starts where the three amigos DID relieve in the preceding games:
Hall: 9.77 (38 runs in 35 innings, average start 5.83 innings)
Bibby: 5.33 (31 runs in 52.1 innings, average start 7.5 innings)
Kison: 4.38 (13 runs in 26.2 innings, average start 6.5 innings)

This said, there is perhaps a bias working on. Perhaps the games they were needed in relief were against the top offenses of the league, most likely the very same teams they were facing in their respective upcoming starts...We would need more data to check....

Very interesting- thanks