The Phenomenal Dale Murray

The basic problem with this (and most other baseball sims) is that half of the results come from the batter card and half from the pitcher. In reality, 80-90% of the result of a typical plate appearance in the major leagues is controlled by the pitcher. If the pitcher hits his spots with an intelligent pitch sequence, there's damned little that even the best hitter can do with it. Greg Maddux was living proof of that; stuff-wise he wasn't in the same area code as Clemens, Ryan, Randy Johnson, or Pedro, but results-wise he was right there.

I think most players here define "realism" as, "When I get my favorite players, my team should always win at least 110 games."

I have occasionally lobbied for the simplest of all fixes to the Gates Brown and Super Reliever problem - when a guy gets to his actual PA or IP total, he becomes irrevocably injured for the rest of the season in that league, with the appropriate add/drop penalty required to replace him. As for the argument that this rule should only apply to pitchers, that presumes that Gates could have kept up his 1968 stats for a full season as a platoon regular. This assumption seems unwise to me, since in 1967, in 105 PA's, his triple slash line was .187/.286/.286 and in 1969 his triple slash line for 100 PA's was .204 / .250 / .290.

I agree 100% with this, but I don't see it happening as it would require a complete repricing, plus some type of requirement for each team to have 1500 IP and 6500 PA on their roster during the autodraft and the season. This additional complication will also lead to a greater gulf in performance between vets and rookies which isn't likely to increase sales.

Remove Murray and eliminate recurring injuries and then all will be dandy, right Nev?

Says the guy who worked with strat to change the relieve strategy to be able to utilize Dale Murray in 7 different bullpen roles so he always goes in and then "discovers" Dale Murray and drafts him in his first 15 leagues Dale Murray is available in.

Says the guy who couldn't beat me before or after the Murray card.

and for you to insinuate that I worked hard to better the bullpen logic and the game for almost a year, for nothing but a "thank you" because I had a hidden agenda, makes me think even less of you than I did before.

and I know you love the Murray card...and the price of it...and how it's used...and all the other 4500 cards because you love anything and everything SOM does.

Says the guy who worked with strat to change the relieve strategy to be able to utilize Dale Murray in 7 different bullpen roles so he always goes in and then "discovers" Dale Murray and drafts him in his first 15 leagues Dale Murray is available in.

you call other people trolls?

I doubt even you yourself believes that this is what happened.

Says the guy who worked with strat to change the relieve strategy to be able to utilize Dale Murray in 7 different bullpen roles so he always goes in and then "discovers" Dale Murray and drafts him in his first 15 leagues Dale Murray is available in.

you call other people trolls?

I doubt even you yourself believes that this is what happened.

So true Salt...A troll.

and now we'll hear how he helps so many "in private" but we hear it so much from him it really isn't even "private" anymore lol.

Says the guy who worked with strat to change the relieve strategy to be able to utilize Dale Murray in 7 different bullpen roles so he always goes in and then "discovers" Dale Murray and drafts him in his first 15 leagues Dale Murray is available in.

you call other people trolls?

I doubt even you yourself believes that this is what happened.

Hey Salty I hear I.stretcher is posting on RTsports, maybe you could go post there how he is obsessed with you

Charlie,

What does his obsession have to do with you enacting the very same behavior you claim to despise in others?

You can keep taking cheap shots if you want, that doesn't make you correct or a better person for it.

No doubt Murray is the poster boy for what's wrong with the "relief logic" (an oxymoron?) in the computer game engine, just like Bonds is the poster boy for steroid era abuses in MLB. Sutter, of course, is the next most prominently mentioned player regarding RPs consistently pitching 300+ innings.

I don't think anyone is in favor of eliminating the Murray or Sutter cards or the cards of any other relief pitchers with a fatigue rating of 3 innings or greater. But there is a middle ground. Just as SOM limits starting pitchers who may have tossed 400-650+ innings in the dead ball era to one start every 4 games, relief pitchers can have usage limits as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe such usage limits for relief pitches are already built into the seasonal computer game, so why not in the ATG series as well?

There are many very smart people on this site and no doubt SOM knows baseball, so I'm sure it could be done in a fair fashion. Just let everyone know the usage parameters in advance.

Most 4 day starting pitchers are calculated to pitch 300 or so innings, maybe a little more for the great ones and a little less for the mediocre ones. Although I didn't participate in pricing for relief pitchers, it looks to me like they were priced at about half of 4 game starting pitchers with similar cards, probably under the theory that they would pitch no more than 150 innings. If Super Relievers are going to routinely pitch 200+ innings, they should have their price doubled to reflect their potential usage, as nobody drafts Dale Murray with the intention of using him for just the 69 innings he actually pitched in 1974. No, he gets drafted because he can pitch 300+ effective innings at about half the price of Maddux and other star starting pitchers.

Since SOM is not about to double the price on Super Relievers any time soon, my suggestion is to give gamers the option of leagues with relief innings pitched limits and leagues without relief innings pitched limits, kind of like SOM does in the seasonal game with the "unleashed" computer version for those who want to include the seasonal cards that are based on limited use during the MLB season but produced off the chart stats. The default version of the ATG computer game would be with relief limits, with a toggle box for those who wanted to have the Super Reliever option. That way, those who feel that they need a super reliever to enhance their chances of winning could all be in the same league together, can fight over Murray and the other super relievers and can take turns trotting out Murray, Sutter, Smith, Radatz, Schultz, Reagan, Wilhelm and their ilk after 5 innings (if that) of fine work by their cheapo starting pitchers. You could all take turns limiting each others' hitting. Now wouldn't that be fun?

Nevdully posted on Dec 28, 2013 where he confirms HE had Bernie implement the logic to allow relief pitchers to stay in. Never mind the ridicuolos logic that batting for the 800th time is the same as pitching in your 400th inning.

Exactly!

I discussed this at length with Bernie during BP v.2 to give rps a 3rd consecutive appearance for two key reasons ...first and foremost to allow our bullpen decisions more of a chance to succeed (or fail) "as we set them to do"... As it was, at best, a completely rested bullpen by the third game of any given series might, and often would be at HAL's mercy simply because of moves made in the first two games of the series...e.g. your lefty specialist faces one batter in each of the first two games of a series so now by rule is "fatigued" meaning your hard leaning righty might face 7 lefties in a row while getting blown out and fatigued himself (for your next series) in a 22-7 loss in 3rd game of the series...

Also while certainly "not" realistic, it does go a long way towards minimizing the new and ridiculously damaging fatigue rules which play a big part in our pitchers having ERAs of 7.00+ while leveling the playing field of Absolutely no other player feeling ANY effects of fatigue....A fielder never gets tired, ever. A hitter is just as likely on his 800th ab of his season to hit a HR as his 1st, 100, 200, etc. and batters like Gates Brown and Milt May and a ton more exceed all realistic usage expectations without any negative effect of fatigue.

The 15 times he drafted Dale Murray was when he was claiming to have discovered him, now inferring that Ben Tincup is the same issue as Dale Murray is well, not very factual. Nev may not like the fact others do not like an indefatigable Dale Murray, he certainly saw and realized and utilized himself the special value the rule change created, and to imply other relievers are equal to Dale Murray, or that batting an 800th time is the same as pitching a 400th inning is obviously just trying to distort a reality he very much realizes and utlized.

Says the guy who worked with strat to change the relieve strategy to be able to utilize Dale Murray in 7 different bullpen roles so he always goes in and then "discovers" Dale Murray and drafts him in his first 15 leagues Dale Murray is available in.

Says the guy who couldn't beat me before or after the Murray card.

and for you to insinuate that I worked hard to better the bullpen logic and the game for almost a year, for nothing but a "thank you" because I had a hidden agenda, makes me think even less of you than I did before.

and I know you love the Murray card...and the price of it...and how it's used...and all the other 4500 cards because you love anything and everything SOM does.

I do not "love" the Murray card, it is a mathematical expression of outcomes, It is obvious as you know if you get 300 innings from that card it is worth 10 million dollars in an 80 or 100 million dollar league, for you to claim otherwise is absurd. I could care less if the name was Dale Murray or Dale Carnegie, the truth is the bullpen and super reliever roles we can now use are what you have claimed to have created and was a key I believe in what YOU were trying to create when YOU as representative of the players were given input into programming. I am not saying you had some secret conspiracy to gain an edge, but you had your own vision of what a bullpen should be and assumed what you wanted must be what everyone wanted and now you are irked as the recent posts show if people do not agree with your vision of bullpen logic.

My opinion was based on how I thought it best for the new bullpen logic to work given all the circumstance of how the rest of the game plays....After many threads and posts and league conversations over years of game play I thought this would be a big step in the right direction based on so many others opinion as well as mine.