Greatest 2b/Greatest Rock Bands

Seems they have a rule against prog-rock in general. King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Moody Blues, Genesis, Gentle Giant etc. Pink Floyd the only such band to be the exception

Genesis is already in, definitely more for the innovative Peter Gabriel version than the schlocky Phil Collins one. Radiohead is not exactly a prog-rock band, but they definitely have prog-rock qualities and will certainly be inducted in their first year of eligibility. Pink Floyd was simply a much better band than the others. They produced classic albums the others didn't and had a tremendous influence on future seminal bands such as Radiohead, Rush, and Nine Inch Nails.

As to the other bands you mentioned, King Crimson was definitely innovative and had talented musicians (such as Fripp), but their catalog of songs and albums falls HOF short. Steve Howe was a gifted guitarist, but Yes hasn't had much of an impact beyond its time and its catalog also falls short of the critical and professional recognition needed for the HOF. Moody Blues fans can disagree on this one, but they just weren't good enough. Yes, they put out some catchy psychedelia; but, in the end, it was pretty much catchy psychedelia.

The Rock and Roll HOF is supposed to be like the baseball one; it is supposed to only induct the true greats. It has definitely dropped the ball by inducting artists such as: Abba, Donna Summer, Hall and Oates, and Donovan. Hopefully it tightens and improves its restrictions in the future.

Is there a clear cut definition for a band/artist to be eligible for the HOF? Years. Albums. Sales, what do they use and who votes?
King Crimson HOF
Pink Floyd HOF
Moody Blues Border line

My Top Ten Today
The Beatles
John Lennon and the Plastic Ono Band
Queen
The Smiths
REM
Jetrho Tull
Eric Clapton
Carlos Santana
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Snow Patrol
Death Cab for Cutie

Besides the 25-year period since the release of an artist's first album, the Rock and Roll HOF's general standards for induction are:

"We shall consider factors such as an artist's musical influence on other artists, length and depth of career and the body of work, innovation and superiority in style and technique, but musical excellence shall be the essential qualification of induction."

The RnR Hall has a definite bias against Prog rock. It took FOREVER for Rush to be inducted despite having arguably the best drummer and bass player alive today. And even when they were inducted, it was seemingly begrudgingly. Of course they've never gotten the acclaim they deserve from the american music press.
Other Prog rock that should be in:

Jethro Tull ( perhaps one of the most misunderstood bands by the American music press, hell, they once won a Grammy for best HEAVY METAL album )
Yes
Emerson Lake and Palmer
King Crimson


As for your lists:


2b
Alomar
Sandberg
Carew
Morgan
Robinson

I can't put Kent on this list as has glove was so sub par, great hitter, but to me if you are going to say greatest, it has to cover your all around game.

My all time Bands/Artists:

The Who
U2
Rush
The Beatles
Led Zep
Queen
Pink Floyd
The Stones
Peter Gabriel
Bruce SpringSteen
Dave Mathews Band
REM

Niners,

The RnR Hall has a definite bias against Prog rock. It took FOREVER for Rush to be inducted despite having arguably the best drummer and bass player alive today. And even when they were inducted, it was seemingly begrudgingly. Of course they've never gotten the acclaim they deserve from the american music press.
Other Prog rock that should be in:

Jethro Tull ( perhaps one of the most misunderstood bands by the American music press, hell, they once won a Grammy for best HEAVY METAL album )
Yes
Emerson Lake and Palmer
King Crimson

You could argue that the Hall has a bias against Heavy Metal, since it has yet to induct Motorhead or Slayer; it has only inducted Metallica. Zep and Sabbath are pre-metal. You could also argue that it has a bias against 80's modern rock, as it has yet to induct the great influential bands The Smiths, The Cure, and Joy Division/New Order. However, as I noted above, it has inducted Genesis, Pink Floyd, and Rush, so you can hardly claim they have a "bias" against prog rock; they're not required to include them all. Rush took awhile because none of their albums--even 2112--were particularly well received by music critics. That really tends to hurt a HOF case, Neal Peart at drummer or no.

As to the others. Yes and ELP's albums and songs were simply not good enough (and very few make a serious case for ELP). They weren't great influences on future artists, and they certainly aren't well thought of by rock critics today. However, Niners, if you think they truly belong, please use the HOF standards I posted earlier and make an argument for Yes and ELP's inclusion. I would look forward to your insight. As I said earlier, KC has a substantial case; no classic albums, but gifted musicians and major influential innovators. Jethro Tull less so on both counts, but they were better than Hall and Oates, and I wouldn't bemoan their inclusion.

As for your lists:
2b
Alomar
Sandberg
Carew
Morgan
Robinson

I can't put Kent on this list as has glove was so sub par, great hitter, but to me if you are going to say greatest, it has to cover your all around game.

Your exclusion of Kent is obviously fine; we all have our own standards. However, while Kent's defense was hardly stellar, it was hardly "so sub par." If you have any statistical analysis showing it was so, please share, and I may change my list. As of now, he is still the most dominant offensive 2b of the era who handled his position, if not entirely with aplomb, and he stays at #7.

Also, if the second basemen on your greatest second basemen list have to have an all around game, why did you put Carew third on your list? His defense was subpar at 2b, and you could hardly say he had an "all-around" game there.

2B:

My list is my list, really isn't much more to it than that. I feel Carew was a better defender, in that he had better range than Kent, who was more of a corner INF playing at 2b, at least from a range perspective. I did not see Carew play a whole lot as he was playing when I was young and before I followed the game like I do now so I may be off my rocker. Kent however, I saw a lot. I'm a Mets fan so I followed him even after he left and always thought, he played defense like he had cement shoes. I can't argue his offensive numbers and I guess 7th sounds about right (though I'd be inclined to moved him down a bit more) if I went that far but I stopped at 5.

RnR HOF

I suppose ELP could be a little light in HOF requirements, I just feel Keith Emerson is one of the top keyboardists in rock history and doesn't get the recognition he deserves and based on the halls requirements of musicianship/technical excellence, he fits the bill and pushes ELP into the HOF discussion.

My argument for Yes being included is similar. You mentioned Steve Howe, but he isn't even the best musician in the band IMHO. That distinction belongs to Rick Wakeman who is also one of the top keyboardists in rock history IMHO.

I will disagree with you on one point though, your statement that the 80's are underrepresented, here's a list of artist in the HOF that could be argued had their biggest successes either commercially, critically or both during the 80's:

AC/DC
Blondie
The Clash
Elivis Costello
Peter Gabriel
Genesis
Guns and Roses
Hall and Oates( don't believe they should be in, but they were HUGE in the 80's)
Madonna
John Mellencamp
The Police ( Sting should also be in as a solo artist IMHO)
The Pretenders
Prince
REM
Rush
The Sex Pistols
Bruce Springsteen ( Yeah he had huge critical successes in the 70's but Born in the USA, along with Michael Jackson's Thriller and U2's The Joshua Tree are arguably the 3 biggest albums of the 80's both commercially and critically)

The Talking Heads
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
U2
Van Halen

I can make arguments for a few others too. so I don't think that's to few especially if you want to keep it tough to get into the hall.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3 bands you specifically mentioned, and am barely familiar with their work, and even then mostly the Cure, and I'll be honest, they ain't my cup of tea. Robert Smith needs to a couple of cups of coffee and to get to a beach IMHO, and I say that not because of his complexion, but his depression.

I'll also agree Metal is underrepresented, but that's also a genre, I'm not particularly fond of/familiar with.

This is all just one guy's opinions though, YMMV.

:

My list is my list, really isn't much more to it than that. I feel Carew was a better defender, in that he had better range than Kent, who was more of a corner INF playing at 2b, at least from a range perspective. I did not see Carew play a whole lot as he was playing when I was young and before I followed the game like I do now so I may be off my rocker. Kent however, I saw a lot. I'm a Mets fan so I followed him even after he left and always thought, he played defense like he had cement shoes. I can't argue his offensive numbers and I guess 7th sounds about right (though I'd be inclined to moved him down a bit more) if I went that far but I stopped at 5.

I'm cool with that. I definitely wouldn't sing Kent's defensive praises. As a Giants fan, though, I also saw him play a lot. While I definitely agree with you on the range factor, his glove and footwork continually improved, and he was an effective dp partner to Aurilia.

I will disagree with you on one point though, your statement that the 80's are underrepresented, here's a list of artist in the HOF that could be argued had their biggest successes either commercially, critically or both during the 80's:

I didn't say that the 80's are underrepresented; I said that 80's Modern Rock is underrepresented, and that it's primary artists have been unjustly ignored. Of your list, only Elvis Costello (and maybe The Police) would qualify as 80's modern rock, although he straddles the line between Punk/post-punk singer-songwriter and Modern rocker. R.E.M. and U2 could be grouped with them. However, R.E.M. was its own synthesis of Byrds-folk rock, Velvet Underground moodiness, and Patti Smith punk. U2 is more of a synthesis of Who arena rock, Clash punk, and Van Morrison spiritualism. Neither are particularly New Wave in their sound like The Smiths, The Cure, and Joy Division; and "lesser" bands like Echo and The Bunnymen, Siouxsee and The Banshees, and The Jesus and Mary Chain.

Robert Smith needs to a couple of cups of coffee and to get to a beach IMHO, and I say that not because of his complexion, but his depression.

I'll also agree Metal is underrepresented, but that's also a genre, I'm not particularly fond of/familiar with.

This is all just one guy's opinions though, YMMV...

I'm completely with you there, Niners. Ol Bob has needed some Summers in Ibiza for awhile now. I actually had a Goth girlfriend in high school, and we broke up after I pretty much told her the same. And thanks for your opinions. We may not breach our Modern Rock/Prog Rock gap, but I definitely appreciate them.

Ahh, clearly I missed the words "modern rock" in your post. I think the problem with that particular category is there are too many 1 or 2 hit wonders and no one of lasting significance. Bands like Tears for Fears, Flock of Seagulls, the Split Endz, Echo and the Bunnymen and Madness, they scream 80's but none of them stuck around long enough to have any real impact. They certianly made up the sound track of my high school days though.

Yes, there were many one hit wonders. The Smiths, The Cure, and Joy Division/New Order, however were definitely bands of lasting significance and substantial influence, and are all probable if not likely eventual inductees. Those others you mentioned, not so much. However, Neil Finn is one of the greatest songwriters ever--McCartney considers him the greatest songwriter alive--and if he isn't inducted, then Split Enz/Crowded House should be inducted to acknowledge his amazing body of work.

They were also the soundtrack of my high school days; so, we're peers, Niners. Who would have guessed you were raised on The Breakfast Club and Ferris Beuller...

Well, The Smiths just may get their due after all. They are one of fifteen nominees vying for induction into the Rock-and-Roll HOF. Although I'm pulling for them, I can't say they are definite shoo-ins, unlike Lou Reed and Green Day. I also think Nine Inch Nails and the woefully overlooked Stevie Ray Vaughn definitely include inclusion. Joan Jett and Sting, not so much. I loved The Police. However, his solo stuff has been mostly Adult Contemporary sap.

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