Top Ten Shortstops Right Now/Ten Greatest War Movies

sometimes young people are insecure about themselves and someone saying they are wrong is tough on their self esteem. Eventually as you get older hopefully your self esteem is less dependent on everyone agreeing with you and it becomes ok for others to have opinions that differ from yours.

Sometimes we all have to be patient with the younger people while they mature in to that though.

Firstly, If Valen is including me among these "younger posters," I am extremely grateful. At 46, I haven't considered myself "younger" for quite awhile. However, I know Valen can't be talking about me, since I made it clear I had no problems with TN saying I was wrong:

First of all, Teamnasty, thanks for having the directness, if not the tact, of claiming I'm wrong...even though I'm not. There's been a lot of crying on the Forum lately about how terrible it is to correct someone or say they're wrong. Your doing so proves a lot of people still do it...and there's nothing wrong with it.

That being said, many posters have been crying about posters telling them they are wrong. And I completely agree with Valen they do have self-esteem issues and need to learn to be ok with people telling them they're wrong. This poster below is clearly way too sensitive about it. Valen would surely think so:

There is nothing more discouraging than posting your thoughts and being told in the next post "You're wrong..."

There are many other veterans who have expressed similar over-sensitivity. I have no idea how old they are, but they have been quite over-sensitive. As Valen says, people need to get over their insecurities and learn how to deal with being corrected or told/implied they are wrong. I want to thank Valen for his post, because I don't ever expect anyone to complain about being told they are wrong again. Valen has truly freed us...

Honus Wagner
Alex Rodriguez
Ozzie Smith
Cal Ripken
Derek Jeter
Robin Yount
Joe Cronin
Lou Boudreau
Luke Appling
Ernie Banks

My top 10. All more games at SS than Tulo.

I like Tulo, but part of being great is being available to play. Tulo has only played 140 games 3 times in his 9 year career. 3 TIMES!!! He is going to have to play some more years for him to crack my top 10.

Firstly, thanks for your excellent list. I completely agree that Tulo hasn't had a top ten career yet. My argument is that he is arguably the best all-around shortstop to play the game, and if he does stay healthy he could actually be the best ever.

If I compared him to your top ten, Tulo would measure up to or surpass most of them as a better all-around shortstop, even if they've had (so far) better careers. I'm basing that on his pure skills, as well as on his awesome production when healthy:

1. Alex Rodriguez--A-Rod is a juicer, so Tulo beats him out of the gate. A-Rod also never had Tulo's range. A-Rod beats him in raw power, but Tulo is still the better all-around SS
2. Ozzie Smith. Obviously Ozzie had superior footwork and range (over everybody). However, considering Tulo's excellent range, superior arm, and much superior hitting and power, Tulo is a better all-around SS
3. Cal Ripken. Obviously Cal stays in the game better. Tulo does everything else better.
4. Derek Jeter. Jeter was a better all-around hitter. Tulo does everything else better.
5. Robin Yount. I love Yount, but there is no part of the game where he surpassed Tulo.
6. Joe Cronin. It's hard to compare eras, but Cronin only tops Tulo in OBP ability. Tulo tups him everywhere else.
7. Lou Boudreau. The era thing again, but Boudreau was only the superior hitter. Tulo tops him everywhere else.
8. Luke Appling. Definitely a better pure hitter with more speed. Tulo tops him everywhere else
9. Ernie Banks. Banks is definitely the superior player, Tulo is the superior shortstop.

So, while all of your shortstops have had better careers so far, none were better shortstops. Tulo is a 6'3, cannon-armed shortstop with excellent range and hands as a defender. He's also a dangerous hitter with an excellent batting eye and devastating power. He may never have the careers of the shortstops you mentioned. However, if God wanted to create a shortstop, he would create one like Tulo. He would just leave out the mark of Cain he gave to the real one.

I can't have a conversation about being the best ever with considering the career. Is Tulo the most gifted SS? Maybe. Mark Prior was one of the best young pitchers I had ever seen, but he will never be in the greatest of all time conversation.

Is Nomar Garciaparra a great all-time SS?

You can consider whatever you want; that's your prerogative. It is also my prerogative to consider Tulo is the best all-around shortstop to play the game, and if he does stay healthy he could actually be the best ever. I do consider Tulo's impressive career; I also realize it isn't finished.

Mark Prior is not an apt comparison. Unlike Tulo, nobody would ever call Mark Prior the best or most gifted player at his position. Also, while Tulo has been hurt, he has carved out a solid career so far. He's had 6 seasons with 20-32 home runs, including two with 30 or over. He's had four seasons with 90-100+ rbis. He's won two Gold Gloves and finished in the top ten MVP vote 3 times. That is a substantially more accomplished career than Mark Prior's

As to Nomar, he was an outstanding SS and merits mention in Top 20 lists. However, while he was a better pure hitter than Tulo, Tulo is better at everything else. So, that's another great shortstop to whom Tulo is superior.

Posting opinions is fun, saying anyone who disagrees is therefore wrong is not.

I will second that.

I'll third it.

Considering I've never said anyone was wrong for disagreeing with me, I will second that as well.

I already "thirded" it, Steve, but thanks for contributing...

sometimes young people are insecure about themselves and someone saying they are wrong is tough on their self esteem. Eventually as you get older hopefully your self esteem is less dependent on everyone agreeing with you and it becomes ok for others to have opinions that differ from yours.

Sometimes we all have to be patient with the younger people while they mature in to that though.

I have never given 2 shits what people think of me since I turned 6. My mother has told me the stories. I have though seen people at 50 that still haven't grown up. Its not a matter of the age of the person as much as the age of maturation that take place as you grow older.

That being said I would love the best SS of all time sitting on my bench in a body cast while I keep bringing up shortstops from AA to keep in the post season race. Nothing like that 19 year old kid that just came out of East West High School to come to bat with the game and season on the line. I think Tulo is very good when he plays but what Manager pencils him in for 160 games let alone 140. I have seen catchers last longer than he does.

This is a fight lost.

Its not a matter of the age of the person as much as the age of maturation that take place as you grow older.

Words of wisdom indeed. Lord knows I've encountered men older than me with the maturity of whelps. I also have a 16-year-old son who is one of the most mature, wisest people I've met.

As to your views of Tulo, if his getting injured in a playoff race bothers you so much, then you should certainly leave him off of any top ten list. As I mentioned above, he's played extremely well when he's played, and he's played enough to accomplish a lot in his short career.

This is not a "fight lost." It is merely a disagreement with you and me on different sides. Without such disagreements, this Forum would be quite dull.