2015 MLB MVPs

I understand what you're saying, but I'd say Ozzies value is just magnified by virtue of being on a better team. If he'd have had the same production, but been on the Cubs, the Cubs still don't make the playoffs. If Dawson was on the Cubs, maybe they win the division by 7 games rather than the 3 with Ozzie.

Or, another way to think of it - maybe without Dawson, the Cubs only win 60 games...so his value is greater in terms of impact, but because the rest of his team sucks he's deemed less valuable.

I don't know, seems like since "Value" is such a subjective term, it drives the argument in circles. Absolute value - kind of what the SOM salaries try to reflect, versus Relative value - how a player fits the needs of his particular team.

And even my descriptions of value could be sliced apart...fun to discuss nonetheless

I completely agree. Ozzie's value was absolutely magnified by being on a winning team, as his production led more to his team winning than Dawson's did. It was just Dawson's production was so tremendous, it was undoubted it led to a great majority of his team's wins, despite how few there were. So, the question is whether Ozzie's somewhat less production leading to greater success was more valuable than Dawson's greater production leading to less success. And I agree with you that if--after taking defensive production into account--it's close in any way, I would go with Smith as well.

And you're also correct in seeing the ambiguous nature of "value" as being the root of the disputes. There is obviously always objective values involved in value decisions--e.g. actual statistics, games won, numbers of games played. However, there are so many subjective preferences that come into play that determine what value in baseball actually is:

1. The value of pitchers vs. hitters
2. Offense vs. defense
3. The values of the respective positions
4. Old statistics (BA, RBis) vs. New statistics (OBP, OPS) vs. Newer statistics (WAR, Dwar)
5. Run production (rbis, runs) vs. production at the plate (OBP, BA, slugging)
6. Pitchers wins or saves vs. pitchers productivity (Whip, ERA, K/IP)
7. Intangibles (leadership, character, playing through injuries)
8. Clutch performance and high productivity in important games or series.

And there are many more. So, all the different ways there are to determine value often lead even intelligent and knowledgeable fans and writers to have greatly disparate views of value and what makes a Most Valuable Player. Hopefully, all involved will well think out their value system, apply it accurately and knowledgeably to the players in contention, and follow the rules of the voting. if all do that, there will be different choices for MVP, but they should all be legitimate in their own particular way.

Ozzie was a much better player than Dawson in 1987 regardless of their comparative team strengths. his combination of offense and defense was worth over 6 wins over replacement, whereas Dawson's was worth about 3.5 wins. Voters used to be much more hr/rbi obsessed than they are now, although they still over value power production compared to obp/speed/defense.

But Ozzie deserved the award over Dawson in '87 because he was the better individual player, not because he was on the better team.

And again the rules focus on the individual's contributions on offense, defense, and character to his team, and absolutely make zero reference to team strength as a proper criteria in the mvp award.

Otherwise they'd have named it "most valuable player on a playoff/good team" award.

And Gwynn was better than either of them

Ozzie was a much better player than Dawson in 1987 regardless of their comparative team strengths. his combination of offense and defense was worth over 6 wins over replacement, whereas Dawson's was worth about 3.5 wins. Voters used to be much more hr/rbi obsessed than they are now, although they still over value power production compared to obp/speed/defense.

We've discussed this before. Just because you, personally, excessively emphasize WAR over other traditional stats--of which OBP is still one--doesn't mean other baseball people do, and it doesn't make those traditional stats necessarily less important. You are, however, free to prove otherwise. Until then, you haven't shown Ozzie was the better player.

And if voters didn't care about traditional stats any more, they wouldn't have voted Miguel Cabrera MVP over Mike Trout in 2012. So voters still rightly still care about and value those statistics.

And again the rules focus on the individual's contributions on offense, defense, and character to his team, and absolutely make zero reference to team strength as a proper criteria in the mvp award.

And again, I showed in my post to you the fact value is mentioned in the rules means it's not just the production itself that matters, but how valuable that production was to the team. And a team's record can very often reflect that. Here's that post:

So, voters factoring in how well the team has done aren't just "stupidly grafting on a good team" requirement; they are partially measuring the player's value by the team's success. In other words, if a player's team did terrible, just how valuable was that player's performance? Some would say they could have just done as poorly without him. And when a player's contributions can be seen to significantly contribute to a winning team's success, many voters logically give that player credit for that significant contribution.

So, while a player's team's performance certainly shouldn't be the primary determinant of his value, it is certainly a valid part of measuring that value, and should be taken into consideration when evaluating a player's legitimacy as MVP.

You've failed twice now to counter my arguments in this post. If you do so a third time, your inability to counter it will be confirmed.

Valen, I kind of agree with you except for that award doesn't count defense or baserunning.

Very good point.

AL MVP argument is over. Josh DONALDSON. I have watched almost every Jay game this year. I have certainly been watching an MVP season by the Rainmaker. He walked it off again today with a hr for the 3rd time this season.