Ortiz 500 HR = HOF?

No, I read perfectly well. I just don't keep track of your stats supporting specious arguments. Also, you said he hit 271 as DH or PH. So, he could still have hit more as a 1bman than as a DH, and you don't read your own posts very well.

Either way, there is no comparison between Thomas and Ortiz who played almost his entire career as a DH. So, you still have to try again.

Wrong again, without Thomas stats as a DH, Thomas would not be in the HOF, period, end of story. His days at 1B are not enough to get in.

I agree with strether that a player like Frank Thomas, who had more HR or other offensive contributions as a DH than any other position, should be in the HOF if their total stats warrant it.

That's cool we're in agreement, since--as you pointed out--Thomas hit more than half of his home runs while playing 1b, so he wasn't the full-time career DH Ortiz has been.

Apparently you are not able to read very well. As I previously correctly pointed out......Thomas hit more HR as a DH then he did as a 1B.

Stats to support your point LM:

Code: Select all

                                                       
           Split    G   PA  HR RBI   BA  OBP  SLG   OPS
           as 1B  969 4334 250 816 .337 .453 .625 1.078
           as DH 1310 5698 269 881 .275 .394 .505  .899
           as PH   45   45   2   7 .162 .311 .324  .635
    as PH for DH    2    2   0   0 .000 .500 .000  .500


Wrong again, without Thomas stats as a DH, Thomas would not be in the HOF, period, end of story. His days at 1B are not enough to get in.

Dave, I agree, Big Hurt had incredible numbers at 1B, but <1000 games, <3500 ABs and <1200 Hits won't get it done. Seriously, a 1.078 OPS over 969 games! WOW

Code: Select all

                                                               
I          Split    G   AB   R    H  HR RBI   BA  OBP  SLG   OPS
           as 1B  969 3485 729 1174 250 816 .337 .453 .625 1.078
           as DH 1310 4678 763 1288 269 881 .275 .394 .505  .899
           as PH   45   37   2    6   2   7 .162 .311 .324  .635
    as PH for DH    2        1    0   0   0 .000 .500 .000  .500


Split G PA HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS
as 1B 969 4334 250 816 .337 .453 .625 1.078
as DH 1310 5698 269 881 .275 .394 .505 .899
as PH 45 45 2 7 .162 .311 .324 .635
as PH for DH 2 2 0 0 .000 .500 .000 .500

Thanks for those stats, Robby. It supports my point Thomas didn't come close to playing almost all his career at DH...like Ortiz:

And thanks for showing Frank Thomas played many more games defensively than Ortiz. You're now actively, not just inadvertently, supporting my argument. Interesting.

Split G PA HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS
as 1B 969 4334 250 816 .337 .453 .625 1.078
as DH 1310 5698 269 881 .275 .394 .505 .899
as PH 45 45 2 7 .162 .311 .324 .635
as PH for DH 2 2 0 0 .000 .500 .000 .500

Thanks for those stats, Robby. It supports my point Thomas didn't come close to playing almost all his career at DH...like Ortiz:

And thanks for showing Frank Thomas played many more games defensively than Ortiz. You're now actively, not just inadvertently, supporting my argument. Interesting.

If Thomas career was over after playing just 1B, we would not having this conversation, while his numbers are off the charts, but only doing it for <1000 games does not get you in, thus he needed his stats as a DH to get him in. Interesting.

No, I read perfectly well. I just don't keep track of your stats supporting specious arguments. Also, you said he hit 271 as DH or PH. So, he could still have hit more as a 1bman than as a DH, and you don't read your own posts very well.

I post his stats and you cant read them. I repost pointing out that you missed it the first time and you still question if he hit more HR as a 1B. Even when you are clearly wrong you still can't admit it and attempt to twist the original intent.

Thomas is a primarily DH player that was elected to the HOF. In fact when looking at various websites for the best all-time DHs they also list Molitor. I'm not sure if he played more DH than in the field but he did play a large amount of games as a DH too.

When a player such as Ortiz is the basically the most feared hitter in the lineup for over 10 years running it doesn't really matter what position he plays. That is an important player that deserves consideration for the HOF and you think otherwise. End of story.

Split G PA HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS
as 1B 969 4334 250 816 .337 .453 .625 1.078
as DH 1310 5698 269 881 .275 .394 .505 .899
as PH 45 45 2 7 .162 .311 .324 .635
as PH for DH 2 2 0 0 .000 .500 .000 .500

Thanks for those stats, Robby. It supports my point Thomas didn't come close to playing almost all his career at DH...like Ortiz:

And thanks for showing Frank Thomas played many more games defensively than Ortiz. You're now actively, not just inadvertently, supporting my argument. Interesting.

Would be nice if you could learn to cut and paste properly so that it can be read easily.

Thomas played ~56% of his games as a DH. The state should be that Thomas played the majority of his career as a DH/1B (and in that order as he did play 56% of games as a DH and 42% as a 1B, that is a significant difference, Thomas played 35% more games at DH than he did at 1B).

I post his stats and you cant read them. I repost pointing out that you missed it the first time and you still question if he hit more HR as a 1B. Even when you are clearly wrong you still can't admit it and attempt to twist the original intent.

Thomas is a primarily DH player that was elected to the HOF. In fact when looking at various websites for the best all-time DHs they also list Molitor. I'm not sure if he played more DH than in the field but he did play a large amount of games as a DH too.

When a player such as Ortiz is the basically the most feared hitter in the lineup for over 10 years running it doesn't really matter what position he plays. That is an important player that deserves consideration for the HOF and you think otherwise. End of story.

I read his stats fine. I pointed out I didn't keep track of them, and I showed how I clearly didn't miss anything. You clearly failed to read that. So, the only one clearly wrong is you. You posted this:

Frank Thomas hit 250 HR as a 1B and 271 as a DH or PH.

So, not only did you show Thomas, unlike Ortiz, didn't spend almost all of his career at DH, you showed he spent nearly half of it at first base...which fully supported my argument. Your post was unclear over whether he hit most of his homeruns as a DH or a 1bman, since part of those 271 were as a pinch-hitter. So, not only is your reading poor here, your math is poor as well.

So, Thomas is still a poor comparison to, and poor support for, Ortiz--or any mostly full-time DH--as a Hall-of-famer. Thomas played almost half of his career as a full-time player, Ortiz didn't come close. And you should really stop trying to use Molitor as support until you actually know he supports your case. It just further shows how shoddy your arguments are.

And your final argument is even shoddier. The Hall of Fame is for the best players in MLB; it's not for the most feared hitter in a particular lineup. Using that logic, Fred McGriff and lesser players could be in the HOF as well. And I've made clear many times why full-time DH'es don't deserve to be in the HOF. You just keep failing to counter it. Since you've clearly shown your memory difficulties, I'll explain it to you again. DH's are part-time players who don't have a position and don't contribute defensively. They're not just part-time players in the minds of many; they're part-time players, period, who sit in the dugout while their fellow hitters play defense...and you, erroneously think otherwise. End of story...

By your logic, all pitchers are part-time players as well, as they do not hit or even play everyday, so your argument fails

If there were no DH, Ortiz would be the same player, except he would have camped out at 1B like a statue for all these years, possibly becoming passable defensively. Same for Edgar at third. Being a defensive butcher does not enhance someone's HOF credentials, in my opinion. Teams make the decisions on where guys play or don't play.