Ortiz 500 HR = HOF?

If there were no DH, Ortiz would be the same player, except he would have camped out at 1B like a statue for all these years, possibly becoming passable defensively. Same for Edgar at third. Being a defensive butcher does not enhance someone's HOF credentials, in my opinion. Teams make the decisions on where guys play or don't play.

You don't know that for a fact, and the Hall of Fame committee doesn't vote on what could have been or what players might have done; it votes on what the players actually did. So, regardless of what the players might have played defensively; they still barely played defensively; so they weren't full-time players. And the fact managers put them at DH doesn't change that. Some players missed out on the HOF because scouts unfairly judged them or managers unfairly misused them. Those are just the breaks and they don't factor into HOF judging...Negro League players being the notable exception.

Secondly, there are few "defensive butchers" in the Hall of Fame. Almost all hall-of-fame position players/non-pitchers played (at-least) competent/workable defense. So, the Hall of Fame does take defense into account, if less so for sublime hitters like Ted Williams. So, none of the factors you mention change the fact full-time DHes are part-time players and don't deserve to be in the HOF.

[quote="l.strether] The Hall of Fame is for the best players in MLB; it's not for the most feared hitter in a particular lineup. Using that logic, Fred McGriff and lesser players could be in the HOF as well. And I've made clear many times why full-time DH'es don't deserve to be in the HOF. You just keep failing to counter it. Since you've clearly shown your memory difficulties, I'll explain it to you again. DH's are part-time players who don't have a position and don't contribute defensively. They're not just part-time players in the minds of many; they're part-time players, period, who sit in the dugout while their fellow hitters play defense...and you, erroneously think otherwise. End of story... [/quote]

Counter this, pitchers are part-time players, why are they in the HOF? You have failed to address this time and time again. Guess you will only keep to your cherry picking of topics that you can try and defend.

Let's see if we can explain this once again using your own logic.
You say DH's are part-time players. Counter this that pitchers are then part-time players as they do not hit in the AL normally. So why do pitchers get in the HOF then? DH's, pitchers, and positional players are all players, and all contribute in different ways. There are no standards to get into the HOF based on reaching certain criteria.

If there were no DH, Ortiz would be the same player, except he would have camped out at 1B like a statue for all these years, possibly becoming passable defensively. Same for Edgar at third. Being a defensive butcher does not enhance someone's HOF credentials, in my opinion. Teams make the decisions on where guys play or don't play.

You don't know that for a fact, and the Hall of Fame committee doesn't vote on what could have been or what players might have done; it votes on what the players actually did. So, regardless of what the players might have played defensively; they still barely played defensively; so they weren't full-time players. And the fact managers put them at DH doesn't change that. Some players missed out on the HOF because scouts unfairly judged them or managers unfairly misused them. Those are just the breaks and they don't factor into HOF judging...Negro League players being the notable exception.

Secondly, there are few "defensive butchers" in the Hall of Fame. Almost all hall-of-fame position players/non-pitchers played (at-least) competent/workable defense. So, the Hall of Fame does take defense into account, if less so for sublime hitters like Ted Williams. So, none of the factors you mention change the fact full-time DHes are part-time players and don't deserve to be in the HOF.

And Thomas would be similar to Ortiz in the field if there was no DH. The DH prolonged his career as he became a liability at 1B, he was never regarded as even an average 1B.

Oh my, another pink bar from Dave who is like the moth to the flame with my posts. If anyone wants to take up whatever terrible argument he wrote, feel free. Considering he writes the worst arguments I've encountered, I won't count on it...

Dave apparently never read this. It still applies...

Oh my, another pink bar from Dave who is like the moth to the flame with my posts. If anyone wants to take up whatever terrible argument he wrote, feel free. Considering he writes the worst arguments I've encountered, I won't count on it...

Dave apparently never read this. It still applies...

Sure it still applies, just like your selective reading in other posts, sorry not buying any of it.

Dave, you (and everyone in this thread other the strether himself) are wasting your time on him. He is like one of those dolls with a string you pull and he says something over and over. The strether doll only has a few sayings such as "You cannot change my mind because I have already said otherwise.", "You are wrong and I am correct", "We both used stats. Mine prove I'm correct and yours are meaningless" and other similar sayings. This doll can be used on any baseball topic you can think of.

Uh oh. Looks like Randi got frustrated about losing the argument and is getting petty and personal. What a shock. Unlike you, Randi, I made and supported my arguments. So, the only doll pulling his own string and erroneously saying "you cannot change my mind," "you are wrong and I'm correct" and other similar ridiculous sayings is you...because you have no other choice.

So, when you're ready to actually try and counter my arguments, feel free. Otherwise, you can just keep crying and pulling your little string...

So along comes Babe Bonds, Terrible fielder but oh can he hit!! Plays 21 years for the New York Yankees, hits 1005 Home Runs, 3000+ Rbi`s lifetime average .342. Wins 14 Home Run titles, 7 Batting titles and 6 Triple Crowns, All as a DH. Yanks win 11 World Series mostly as a result of BB`s clutch hitting. He does all this without steroids.

Not in the HOF?

No DH is ever going to produce those stats unless the game itself changes, and David Ortiz sure didn't produce them. You might as well have said 20 home run titles and a life time average of .500. So, your scenario isn't feasible or relevant.

However, if you would like to make an actual argument, I'd look forward to it.