Rogers Hornsby

In response to a question about Rogers Hornsby, Someone wrote;

I love how we try to look at people who lived 100-150 years ago through our own kaleidoscope of culture and ideas and make moral, ethical, and physical judgements about them. "They couldn't have been as (cultured, refined, knowledgable, enlightened, tolerant, talented, athletically dominant) as we are today."

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."---Sir Isaac Newton

Yeah but if people were intelligent and moral 100 to 150 years ago (and I believe most were...) wouldn't it still be wrong to make whole classes of people second class citizens who could not play in the Major Leagues even 100-150 years ago.... Also say 50-75 years ago...???

As to people being tired of "P.C. crap", I was wondering what "P.C. crap"? .... I was asking about the reputations of second baseman Rogers Hornsby. I don't understand what other points are trying to be made, but hey thanks for trying...

Scorehouse added,

well said. i'm so tired of this PC crap!!!

Thank you. By all means point out the "P.C. Crap", so we can ban it .

Radagast Brown wrote:

Yeah but if people were intelligent and moral 100 to 150 years ago (and I believe most were...) wouldn't it still be wrong to make whole classes of people second class citizens who could not play in the Major Leagues even 100-150 years ago.... Also say 50-75 years ago...???

As to people being tired of "P.C. crap", I was wondering what "P.C. crap"? .... I was asking about the reputations of second baseman Rogers Hornsby. I don't understand what other points are trying to be made, but hey thanks for trying...

Man you are really harshing my buzz!!!!

As to that Straw Man argument, yes, it would be wrong to make a class or group of people second class citizens. However, I didn't say that. What I said was, we make judgments about people from long ago based on our experiences and current set of values and ideals. We think, "If I were placed back in that situation, there's no way I would do this or that." Fact is, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

I was not responding so much to Hornsby as to the denigration of "whole classes of people" inherent in the continued bashing of early 1900s players. Yes, there are factors that may have helped make those early 1900s players appear better, just as there are certain factors that make today's players seem better as well. None of us have enough wealth of experience to know for certain. I suspect it's somewhere in the gray middle, and not the hyper extremes.

andycummings65 wrote:

Re: Rogers Hornsby
As to that Straw Man argument, yes, it would be wrong to make a class or group of people second class citizens. However, I didn't say that. What I said was, we make judgments about people from long ago based on our experiences and current set of values and ideals. We think, "If I were placed back in that situation, there's no way I would do this or that." Fact is, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

I was not responding so much to Hornsby as to the denigration of "whole classes of people" inherent in the continued bashing of early 1900s players. Yes, there are factors that may have helped make those early 1900s players appear better, just as there are certain factors that make today's players seem better as well. None of us have enough wealth of experience to know for certain. I suspect it's somewhere in the gray middle, and not the hyper extremes.

Amen brother!!!!

I love how we try to look at people who lived 100-150 years ago through our own kaleidoscope of culture and ideas and make moral, ethical, and physical judgements about them.

A very profound and accurate statement.

Were he around today, Babe Ruth would most likely be cast as a villian. Ty Cobb would too, but he truly deserves it

What references are there to Hornsby being a horrible teammate? Not disagreeing, just curious.

I don't think you know what a "straw man argument" is. The whole point is, MLB was an exclusive all "white " bigoted racial institution until after 1947. It is just a fact and I am sorry but as much as you would like to "white wash" history I am not buying it.... I know how you old white guys pine for the way things used to be, sorry 'bout your luck with that.

Excuse me for thinking that bigotry is wrong and that people knew this 75-100 years ago...

The bottom line is, most of the pre war players would not make a MLB team of today.

I recognize some people like to cling to the way things were but the World moves on, sorry 'bout your luck!

Anyone who doesn't like my opinions or presentation of the facts can find me in a league and we can settle this the old fashion way,on the diamond.... The Last Druid thought he wanted some, it turns out it is not going as he planned. I have the best record in the league and he is stuck in last place.

Scorehose wrote:

well said. i'm so tired of this PC crap!!!

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me what "PC Crap"? Also, what does, "PC Crap" have to do with this forum?

Could you point out this "PC Crap" that offends you so, so we can ban it?

You can believe whatever you want but the facts are the facts. Today's Latino players would destroy the average pre War players.... I know change is scary to old people (especially people who inexplicably don't like "political correctness" or being polite) but the facts are the facts and oh yeah, kick rocks.

Babe Ruth and other Hall of Famers would be good players if they were in their prime today. However, much of their competition would not make a AAA roster of today, let alone a MLB team..... Math doesn't lie, the player pool is 10,000 times bigger than the all white pool of yesteryear....

Radagast Brown wrote:

I don't think you know what a "straw man argument" is. The whole point is, MLB was an exclusive all "white " bigoted racial institution until after 1947. It is just a fact and I am sorry but as much as you would like to "white wash" history I am not buying it.... I know how you old white guys pine for the way things used to be, sorry 'bout your luck with that.

Excuse me for thinking that bigotry is wrong and that people knew this 75-100 years ago...

The bottom line is, most of the pre war players would not make a MLB team of today.

I recognize some people like to cling to the way things were but the World moves on, sorry 'bout your luck!

Anyone who doesn't like my opinions or presentation of the facts can find me in a league and we can settle this the old fashion way,on the diamond.... The Last Druid thought he wanted some, it turns out it is not going as he planned. I have the best record in the league and he is stuck in last place.

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me what "PC Crap"? Also, what does, "PC Crap" have to do with this forum?

Could you point out this "PC Crap" that offends you so, so we can ban it?

You can believe whatever you want but the facts are the facts. Today's Latino players would destroy the average pre War players.... I know change is scary to old people (especially people who inexplicably don't like "political correctness" or being polite) but the facts are the facts and oh yeah, kick rocks.

Babe Ruth and other Hall of Famers would be good players if they were in their prime today. However, much of their competition would not make a AAA roster of today, let alone a MLB team..... Math doesn't lie, the player pool is 10,000 times bigger than the all white pool of yesteryear....

It isn't quite the Dead Ball Era, but I like the 1970s and 1980s for this reason. Fewer homeruns but lots of stolen bases and athletes that do it all. I am not wild about anything pre war because it was "Whites Only" and who knows how many of those guys would struggle to make minor league rosters of today.

Some things have changed, you don't have to be "white" anymore and the players are much much better than they used to be. Babe Ruth hit homeruns off of guys that would not make the AAA teams of today. Walter Johnson struck out batters that would struggle to make college teams of today. And the game was greatly improved with the DH.

There is no doubt the old time Hall of Fame players and great all" white" players could still perform well today, the question is how would the rest of the pre war players do? How many would make MLB teams of today? So I am calling into question Hugh Duffy's .424 batting average and other feats like that.

I find it sad that when the curtain is pulled back on the "white" washing of history some find it "tiresome". Kick rocks.

The player pool of 100 years ago was about 1000 times (or more) smaller than today. Most MLB players from 100 years ago would have a tough time making minor league rosters of today.

Lord I hope this is true.... People say having pitchers hit creates more strategy and to that I say so would making your punter play QB once every nine plays... This is supposed to be professional sports, so let's see the best. Why should some great hitter sit on the bench so some pitcher who hits at a college or even high school level can hit? We live in an era of specialization and having pitchers hit is just dated and silly.... Just because something has been that way forever is not reason enough to keep things that way... I want to see the very best do their very best, if I want to see a high school caliber hitter bat, I will go to a high school game. Let's get the very best in the game doing what they do best.