14.54m 3R Barry Bonds Card

I've looked it closely a few times...I like it because it has HR potential especially against right hand pitchers (Yay)....So I put him in Polo Grounds 1957 stadium which will help him hit hrs too ...except I didn't have much money left in this 80m cap league after spending 14,54m on one player...so I went cheap...and one of the places I went cheap was at 2b...with Davey Johnson because he only costs 2.45m...and he's got a natural HR on #9 and about a 30% natural HR chance on #5...and a few good bp hrs too...But imagine my pleasant surprise when after 150 games (actually Bonds played in 146 and Davey Johnson only 141) Bonds has 55 HRs (yay) and D. Johnson has 50 HRs I was reluctant to post this because some would say "there goes nev bragging again" but at least it does show that I don't only question the results of this game like others say I do, only when it goes against me...But back to Bonds 14.54 n D. Johnson 2.45 and their very similar HR totals...I'm sure it has to do with the other parks...the other pitchers...the other team owners...how often pitchers with the middle name "Albert" pitched...because it has to be something that makes total sense.....and the most comforting thing is...no matter how "seemingly improbable those numbers are...Charlie will tell us they are exactly to be expected...and exactly as Charlie new they would be...and he'll MacGyver some type of numbers and be able to explain exactly why and how it happened.

Then I'll say "but then could it be possible that whatever pricing model they're using is ahhh "little off" for one or the other?"... And again he'll explain exactly why their prices are exactly perfect....And...If there was a "price adjustment" as SOM has done in the past...and lets say Bonds price stayed Exactly them same...But Davey Johnson's went from 2.45 to 4.45 Charlie would then explain that new price exactly correct and exactly how he knew it should be too....I know this for a fact because in the first few iterations of the game Willie Mays' price went up and down like a yo-yo...and Charlie said each price was exactly correct..

But I still would like Charlie to explain why, if he thinks everything is exactly how it should be, why did he fill his own 12 team league to test his strong suspicion that the game logic depressed Dodger hitting?



It's been said that Salty and I are the same person....I think Charlie and Hal Richman are the same person.

I have never said pricing was perfect, I have stated pricing should be based on usage and that is what I believe, since that is a self correcting monitor of value

I have never said pricing was perfect, I have stated pricing should be based on usage and that is what I believe, since that is a self correcting monitor of value

Charlie-- you did not answer Nev's question.

Also, if you say pricing should be based on usage (which is not unto itself a problem), then it becomes infinitely more difficult to determine if someone has a 'correct/incorrect' price, since that will supposedly be self-determining, so of course its almost impossible to be wrong.

Honestly-- in the past your statistical analysis, while Im sure mathematically correct, is based on your conclusions of how you determine things operate-- but so far that hasn't proven out to be the case.
Im not blaming you per se-- just stating that so far your analysis hasn't been helpful to accurately help understand whats going on with the programming.

Nev, you might find the whole experience here less stressful if you just block certain people. I currently have two.

when did you notice the price increase?

But you have to keep in mind the cards are based on duplicating the stats in context of the season, park, etc.
Davey Johnson in real life played in Atlanta which was known in some circles as the launching pad while Barry played his in SF which is a known pitcher park. So ..... oh wait that would have made it more uneven.

This one is a head scratcher for sure. No way those 2 cards side by side in same batting order should have been putting up same numbers. Have to agree with Nev on point he is making here.

On the other hand with such unpredictable results I can always argue that it is this inconsistency and inaccuracy that allows Nev and others to have a higher winning percentage than myself.

OK I am going to address the "Charlie always agrees with management BS" Nev is talking about pricing for Mays, it was a topic of discussion when pricing was wildly changed, and changed in accordance with the wishes of The Last Druid, who was the one who argued the "pricing was accurate" Now I argued that pricing can never be accurate, but can favor a style of play, So here is the thread:
http://forum.365.strat-o-matic.com/community/posting.php?mode=reply&f=6&t=639833&sid=40592ee24757ba5b17070d0f70cdff09

Nev says this early on "
Mays
Morgan
Yount
Speaker
Wagner
etc....
All priced out of standard 80m leagues.
Can we fix this before we get 6 months or more into III."

I respond "As a former Honus fan I say go gobble him up on your teams! Yea he went from 40% of the value of Babe Ruth to 75%. One of those is out of whack!....Rick if the pricing was indeed done strictly on a basis of cards, then I really don't understand the pricing model. There is no way I can see that Roger Hornsby can be 13.1 million dollars and Morgan 11.51. I am looking at Sportsman '34 which is an extreme HR park but in that park Hornsby will create offensively 100% more runs vs left handers than Morgan and 50% vs right handers. To not take Hornsby every time is foolish.

Likewise noone will ever take Concepcion over Bowa, they have virtually the same offensive worth and Bowa won't go down for 15. Fournier and Musial in SPortsman '34 are very nearly equal in hitting power yet Musial cost is 50% higher. This is an example of BP Home runs being undervalued in the new model and natural hitters being punished.

If the pricing model was accurate then an old Griffith team of guys with almost no BP home runs mixed with a lefty and right power defensive player should be at least competitive. My old lineup of
Carter C
Chance 1B
Evers 2B
Wagner SS
Jimmy Collins 3B
Sam Rice RF
Doby Cf
Meusel RF

Has now appreciated like Honus Wagner's baseball card so that to get it I would have to cut Pete Alexander and pick up Darryl Knowles. Now there is no way that team is competitive any more when my competition is able to pick up Ruth, Gehrig Williams Haller and Bowa and cut Sam Frock and pick up a 7 million dollar pitcher. I know enough about the game to know you couldn't play with 65 million against 80 million teams in ATGII.

If I were to instead say well let's take Musial for 1st he won't get hurt and there is not the premium for a "1" since he is a "2" defensively the HR guy can take Fornier in Sportsman '34 his runs created power is very close to Musial and will have 3.5 million more to upgrade the 7 million pitcher to Babe Adams. A very small price to pay for a "4" at 1b where defense is least affected.

I am not saying the pricing model is wrong, as with all these parks it can never be "right" it will only favor a style of play. And to not realized that the new pricing really favors a certain style of play requires one to suspend mathmatical reason, which I for one refuse to do. It may be that pricing is accurate if 70% of the teams choose Griffith or Forbes, but they will not I will bet either a righty oriented HR or lefty oriented HR or Sportsman '34 will be the way to go since all other aspects of the game - defense, speed natural power and stolen bases have been fully priced into the game.""

To which the Last Druid Replied"
Mays may still be underpriced, but at least the pricing now better reflects his value.

In most of my leagues, small ball teams still comprise the majority of teams.

I think it's good that some of the top players go undrafted. At least they are no longer clustered at the top of the price range like Williams, Gehrig, Mantle and Ruth were in ATG II.

I like the way Shamsky was drastically reduced but there are so many players who, like him, were used so rarely that they might as well not have been included in the pool. Too many of these guys went up in price.

Don't get why Bowa was reduced. Wagner should go up in value. Probably should be priced about where Eddie Collins is, maybe a tad higher because of his position, but no more than the low eights.

But in the end, I think TSN's pricing seems a whole lot better than what we would likely get if Nev had his way and set the prices."


On another thread announcing the start of ATGIII I said
http://forum.365.strat-o-matic.com/archivesn/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=113874&start=20
I have no problems with the credits Bernie and how you handle the game. I love this game I would never quit it and will learn and play. I am curious about the pricing of the players however. Obviously pricing is the whole name of the game.

Maybe, Maybe I am off base but it seems as though there will be the effect of eliminating small ball and going to the modern game. Was that the intention for ATGIII. I wrote several posts under the pricing surprises but (for example Yaz/Keller) but the more I look the more I find for bomber teams. For instance Raymond Bugs for 5 innings of relief for 1.6 million? That will play right into a bomber strategy. I primarily used him as a reliever before because of the long innings,and he would only pitch 6 anyway, why did he drop 75% in value?

As the pricing is I think 1/2 the cards are a disadvantage if you use them.
gkhd11a

Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm

Of course Last Druid posted how he "mostly just loved the new pricing" and thought it was brilliant, as Nev complained about unwanted changes, I was most dissatisfied with the pricing at the time but figured I would have to deal with it. So no Nev, it was not me that ever said pricing was ok.



Then of course 10 years ago in 2006 Nev was upset about something or the other and I posted this, seems appropriate today:
http://forum.365.strat-o-matic.com/archivesn/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=112453&start=10#p975773

From an ATGII Starry Starry Night
Postby gkhd11a » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:40 pm

Now I think I know
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen
They're not listening still
Perhaps they never will...

Very well detailed for that particular time but just the tail end of many posts over a few year period...because your views on pricing ...specifically Mays went back well beyond what you post here...but you're doing now, exactly what you've always done... You cherry pick what you choose to answer and then fill your response with nothing (even though some of it might be correct) with nothing but misdirection.. then and always, just like now, you never bother to answer the direct question in larger type that I put forth to you.

I have long suspected that there are aspects to the programing that we don't understand, that is why I try to understand them. Where I disagree is that Stratomatic is not under an obligation to explain all the permutations of why the results occur, as that would totally change the game. Does it not occur to you that the stated results could change if someone at Strat had a friend they wanted to win, looked at the results after the running of the program and then seeing their friend had lost 3 games reran games until he won 3 and then let them post? It is beyond easy to do I am sure for the small staff at Stratomatic. It would be like me requesting an explanation of how results could be what they were when Strat dice procedures are you and Salty sitting in a room "fairly" rolling the dice for all my games. I would rather not have any explanations from "dice management" and instead look at the results to tailor my play, and probably not get into any leagues with you, Salty and Druid.

To be fair, I have looked at the results you gain and they appear repeatable and show great team design so I do not think favorable dice management is responsible for your success, and instead I admire your team designs, I ignore Pretzel Toppings as irrelevant to the game. I do avoid Druid as I have found his results seem to have instances of an inordinate amount of favorable rolls during a season. He may just be an overly lucky guy, this does not mean Stratomatic is actually adjusting rolls and I am not accusing anyone of this as I have no evidence, only unproven suspicions as you have none for your 13% Home Field advantage, but I see no point in wasting money on results that continue to be under the odds I think they should occur, it logically in their best interest to keep Druid in their favor in an effort to keep their best customer happy and a few extra wins will assuage a fragile ego - and his ego must be quite fragile if he resorts to looking up as embarrassing information on a person as possible and post on the forum to bring character questions into a debate when Druid is Stratomatically challenged, the fact he can accuse another player here of criminal activity, something he has done multiple times while still being able to post should show quite clearly the level of favor he has earned from "dice management".

So there is your answer

So if that is what I believe, of what use is "this is how the dice work?" really? Figure out what appears to be happening, and enjoy the leagues that are fair to you.