New ATG cards picked by successful Barnstormers managers?

I wouldn't have a problem with Bernie's proposal if the huge luck element regarding playoff results in the Barnstormer's was reduced. The present system of awarding 20 extra points for a league championship, when the playoffs are basically a crap shoot, devalues the skill required in compiling a record over 162 games vs. at most 14 games. Just adding the total playoffs wins for a team to the regular season totals, while eliminating the "bonuses" would go a long way toward reducing the random luck element. You win a league, by definition, you are adding 8 points to your total and at least 4 points if you make the finals. That should be sufficient. Then the top Barnstormer managers would deserve to be rewarded by getting to choose card additions. It would probably get me to play the tournament again.

Bruce: Perhaps you haven't seen this, posted in the Barnstormers forum, from Mighty Moose:

Also, the biggest change is the points awarded for playoffs.

You will get a point for every regular season WIN.
You will get a point for every PLAYOFF win. (NEW)
You will get 2 bonus points for being a Division winner (down from 5) (NEW)
You will get 1 bonus point for being a Wild Card winner (down from 5) (NEW)
You will not get any bonus points for advancing to the Finals (down from 5) (NEW)
You will get 5 bonus points for winning the WS (down from 10) (NEW)

This means the WS winner will get 8 points for winning the 8 games + 2 for being division winner plus 5 for winning it all.

15 points (down from 20) - this is to place a higher importance on winning and less for "just" getting there.

I hope this change is welcomed by all.

Thanks - Moose

There are few people I'd rather have in my league than Bruce. He's a great player and the competition is always good. I always relish the opportunity to compete against him.

I hope this change in the point system is enough to get you to come back Bruce.

Now let's focus on getting 5 ATG new card selections to each BSers Semis and Finals qualifier!

I understand what you are aiming at. But for those that do not have the time to commit to 6 to 8 teams for the barnstormers should not be locked out from having an equal say in what new cards are added. This proposal would essentially create two classes of ATG participants with those who do not participate in barnstormers being a lower second class ATG citizen. All ATG participants should have an equal say in new cards and all issues.

Valen: You have raised a valid concern, one which I considered before posting the suggestion here. The idea originated to suggest to SOM and Barnstormers officials a viable win-win alternative to offering game credits to successful BSer participants when SOM balked at providing the 12 additional credits resulting from an expanded BSer Semis. The goal is to get more players added to the ATG series, which is overwhelmingly favored by the ATG playing community. There is no intent to lock anyone out of the selection process, but I'm aware that it could be viewed as one of the unintended consequences of adding such a perk to the BSers tourney. As I stated in a previous post, the language of my proposal partially addresses your concern, where in paragraph 4 I wrote:

......."there is nothing to prevent SOM from later (or sooner) adding additional ATG cards independently of the tourney." In other words, the ball is in SOM's court to continue with its planned ATG new card selection process in addition to the new ATG cards added as a result of the BSers tourney. The proposal is intended as a perk to successful BSer managers and is intended to supplement the ATG new card selection process, not to replace it.

Every year I'm on the fence as to whether I will participate in the tourney. It takes time and money to be in the tourney, and the competition is tougher than the average ATG league. One year I quit the tourney after qualifying for the Semis, walking away from my hard earned chance to be the champ, to protest something I didn't like. I suspect that there are many other fence sitters, most, but not all, of whom eventually join the tourney. Offering the added incentive of possibly selecting 5 ATG players would increase participation not only among fence sitters, but would likely expand the base of ATG players and tourney participants. That's good for managers and good for SOM, a true win-win situation.

I hope that you are not saying that you would rather have no players added to the ATG series rather than to have them added by a selection process you don't like, one which you feel deprives you and other members of the community from participating in the the selection process. But if you are saying such, please consider the following:

1. Barnstormers participants are in some ways like professional athletes, being that there are a few superstars, some all-stars, wiley veterans, fringe players and prospects. Not unlike professional athletes, the performance of tourney players can vary widely from year to year, from great to good to average to mediocre. In other words, not everyone is able to earn the right to advance in the tournament by making the Semis. I suspect that most BSer participants would have no problem with the concept of not making the Semis, but letting those who do each select 5 new ATG players.

2. There are those who would argue that the selection process for new ATG players has always been unduly influenced by the early participants, big spenders and squeaky wheels of the ATG community. If such is true, while opinions may differ as to who those people may be, they arguably and historically had the ear of SOM big wigs and helped shape the ATG player pool into what it is today, while the average player had little, if any input. If such is true, does that make it right? No, of course not. But it arguably demonstrates that there has been limited and illusory input, at best, from the community as whole into the player selection process.

3. Take a good look at the ATG new card selection process of the last few years. Either SOM nominates a few players, or SOM gives those who happen to read the forum first that day the opportunity to nominate a player until a certain number of nominations, capped by SOM, is reached. Also, SOM may nominate a few teams, or designate some community members to compile the nominations and then we vote, in the case of individual players, depending on the number of new player candidates, selecting anywhere from 5-10 players to be added on our "ballot". There really hasn't been any singular or consistent method of adding new ATG players. Voting usually lasts in the range of a couple of weeks, and then a predetermined number of players, set by SOM, perhaps about the top half of vote getters, have cards added to the ATG set, which may take anywhere from several weeks to several months to accomplish. While some people may argue that the whole ATG new card selection process is intentionally slow from start to finish to reduce the burden on SOM to produce new cards while at the same time giving the appearance of addressing the desires of the community, that's besides the point. The question is, how many of the players that an individual would like to see added to the ATG series does he really get? The answer is no more than a handful, if that.

4. Valen, there is nothing to prevent you from posting in the forum your list of proposed new ATG cards. As an experienced and respected member of the ATG community, if successful BSer managers get to choose 5 new cards, your suggestions would get serious consideration. My gut feeling is that with 285 new cards, you would get a far higher percentage and far greater number of cards on your list than under any of the previous selection processes.

The goal, of course, is to increase the number of cards added to the ATG series and to get the cards most desired by the community. I hope the focus remains on the end result, which would be far better for the community as a whole, rather than on the selection process.

At the end of the day, what is preferable, more new cards with more of the desired players, or greater input, with fewer cards and fewer desired players, offered to throw a few crumbs at the community? I'll take the better end result every time.

Sorry, but I'll take the process that is all-inclusive, and lets me keep my direct vote, rather than setting up a group of elites to place my vote for me (geez, sounds like Congress and that has worked out so well...)

Thanks,
Bill

The goal is to get more players added to the ATG series, which is overwhelmingly favored by the ATG playing community.

If it is overwhelmingly favored why is a gimmick needed to get more participants? Or by players do you mean cards? If cards the proposal would not necessarily get cards favored by majority of community as by definition only cards favored by the few winners of a tournament most of us do not participate in would be selecting cards. I also suspect strato has designed a system where adding cards is too labor intensive and there is a finite number of cards that can be added and whatever number of cards added via this route would just decrease the number of cards that could be added via the more broad somewhat consensus driven method of selecting cards we have now.

If this were implemented I would want some strict limitations on what cards they could select. MInimum innings or games started for starting pitchers, minimum games or innings pitched for relievers, minimum PA for hitters. I would not want to take chances someone could by right of winning barnstormers add another gates brown or Ken Smith or someone flukey like 77 Roger Freed or something.

Though as I said main objection is treating barnstormer participants as an elite group that is more catered to then everyone else. The fun/challenge of that tournament should be the draw and if that is not enough that implies to me a lack of need for it.

SOM countered with having the Champ pick 5 new cards, the Runner-Up 3 new cards, and 3rd and 4th place - 1 card EA. No "choice" of credit or pick 5 cards. - thanks. Don't shoot the messenger.

According to Strat the ability to name 5 new cards for adding by the barnstormers champ was added LAST YEAR.

So what is being discussed now is not really does the winner get to add 5 new cards of their choice but whether the number should be increased and expanded to additional barnstormer participants.

I pitched what BDWard proposed. That the Top57 players, (or 45) get a CHOICE of whether they want the "credit" for finishing in that position or wanted to pick 5 player cards.

Yes, I am aware that the Champion already has been given that as part of his prize package.

It would be very cool if among our five picks we could use one or more picks to subtract players i.e. Ken Smith whose card is based on a total of one plate appearance vs lefties, yes he walked, and whose three year career yielded a grand total of exactly 63 plate appearances. The funny thing is in 1982 he had six walks, five of which were against righties yet all his walks on his card are against lefties. This card is an absolute disgrace to a company that sells itself based on its accurate representation of player performance, and needs to be eliminated from ATG, particularly as it is such a prominent card in Barnstormer tournaments. This guy has zero historical value and his card is a gross misrepresentation of his extremely limited performance that year.

And Bernie- I did see the changes that were made and was actually the first person to sign up for the 2017 Barnstormers!

And Bernie- I did see the changes that were made and was actually the first person to sign up for the 2017 Barnstormers!

Bruce: Well, I'm glad that you're back. It's always fun to compete against you. Actually, you might be at the top of the list, but to be accurate, Rod McCabe signed up first, about a half hour ahead of you, but put his name at number 5 on the list.

As for me, I'm on the fence again. I'm EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED and disillusioned (but not surprised) that SOM did not seriously consider offering the card selection option to the Semis and Finals managers. We deserve better.

I'm leaning heavily to not participating, to playing out my existing league commitments and taking a long hiatus, or playing a greatly reduced number of teams.

According to Strat the ability to name 5 new cards for adding by the barnstormers champ was added LAST YEAR.

So what is being discussed now is not really does the winner get to add 5 new cards of their choice but whether the number should be increased and expanded to additional barnstormer participants.

Since this "in addition to" and does not take away any existing rewards, we'll just take it.