Ross Barnes

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BC15NY

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostThu Nov 09, 2017 6:01 pm

I think Rosie has been doing a fantastic job with the card add process. What we had two and three years ago was a complete joke.

I'm sure if there is a major groundswell of support for adding pre-1893 cards to the set, he will set up a small poll for that purpose at some point. There seems to be just as many strong opinions for not including them (e.g. Andy's), as there are for adding a few more.

I'm all for adding a few more, but my priority re new cards is for post-war adds, both for cardless players and those with weak cards compared to peak seasons (e.g. Fritz Peterson).

Hats off to you Rosie for sticking with it through all of the acrimony.

Bill
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andycummings65

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostThu Nov 09, 2017 6:05 pm

I, and a lot of the community, think Rosie's doing a fine job with the process. We've had many more cards added since he took over than when Strat would throw out a few here and there. Decisions don't always go the way some may want in various instances, but that's part of the process.
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STEVE F

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostThu Nov 09, 2017 6:27 pm

BC15NY wrote:I think Rosie has been doing a fantastic job with the card add process. What we had two and three years ago was a complete joke.

I'm sure if there is a major groundswell of support for adding pre-1893 cards to the set, he will set up a small poll for that purpose at some point. There seems to be just as many strong opinions for not including them (e.g. Andy's), as there are for adding a few more.

I'm all for adding a few more, but my priority re new cards is for post-war adds, both for cardless players and those with weak cards compared to peak seasons (e.g. Fritz Peterson).

Hats off to you Rosie for sticking with it through all of the acrimony.

Bill

Seconded!
Cheers Rosie!
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Salty

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostThu Nov 09, 2017 6:52 pm

Salty wrote:Now look at what's been happening-- we have a blog that comes out to talk about new cards and occasional sales-- that's it, nothing else for literally months.


Umm--
Yeah, Id like to take credit for being a nostra-saltus by predicting this but it was so dammed obvious--
literally minutes after I posted this, it came true yet again. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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jet40

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 9:10 am

andycummings65 wrote:I, and a lot of the community, think Rosie's doing a fine job with the process. We've had many more cards added since he took over than when Strat would throw out a few here and there. Decisions don't always go the way some may want in various instances, but that's part of the process.

Agreed.
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TIMOTHYFOSTER

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 11:02 pm

Maybe I've been playing strato for a long time without truly understanding the card development process. I was under the understanding that strat powers that be (only a handful of people throughout the game's existence) have looked at a player's statistics during the creation of cards but that the cards were ultimately produced that allowed players statistics to be compared to others playing during their time and adjusted in regards to, for lack of a better term, "their standing" relative to other players. In other words, I thought a player that was the league mvp with a batting avg of 280 when the league average was 240 would have a much more similar card to the player who was the mvp batting 350 when the league average was 300 than say a player who batted 280 when the league average was 300.
I also thought the same was true for pitchers and thus, I didn't think this argument ever needed to happen.

What was Russ Barnes' means of support while he was playing baseball? I guess I ask because I am thinking that Russ Barnes was head and shoulders above his contemporaries, outperforming the vast majority of them by quite a margin and I have no reason to think that if Russ Barnes was born today, he would be heads and shoulders above those he was playing against today and therefore, it seems fitting that the All-Time Great Sets, actually include the All-time Greats. The greats of all time (the entire time of baseball). As soon as we start the ya, but, its kind of a slippery slope and a steep one in my opinion.

To be honest, I don't understand why all the mediocre guys are in the set and don't understand the statement that the game is unplayable if they aren't included? To me, there are way too many guys that were not great in their own time, let alone would be great no matter what era they were born and seems like a top priority for card adds should be finding those guys who consistently outperformed those they were playing against and then let strat work their magic on creating cards for those guys that make sense and are relevant when compared with contemporary players.

If a knowledgeable baseball historian saw the list of the All-time Great set 100 years in the future, I would have to make an ass out of myself and others and think that they would think we were not real bright, as we have omitted from the set at least a handful of All-time greats but have a plethora of were never greats all because of the artificial insistence that we need lots of mediocre guys to play the set? I'd go as far as saying that the All-Time great set is really more "a set of cards created by a group of people willing to put in the work and man-hours (now that I know Rosie is a male) that the company is not willing to take on and therefore has shifted from all-time greats to what the group of people want in their set to play strat the way they envision playing it." We all would agree that without their work, we wouldn't have near the number of cards added that we have and so while I personally (and sounds like a few others) would much prefer to have a way, way smaller set of cards that only include all-time greats from across the era's, until there is one or a group of us willing to put in the work to make that happen, are probably better off to be thankful to those willing to do more than think or gripe for what we have because I know I'm not (willing to do more than think or gripe).

Ultimately, I'm just a little let down that Rosie is a guy, as was envisioning Daryl Hannah (is that her name?) with a love for baseball and strato and have been thinking, "Somewhere out there is one helluva lucky guy." Anyways, gotta go watch a movie with the wife -- there will be no discussion of baseball nor strat in my night after this post and guess the perfect woman still doesn't exist.
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Rosie2167

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostSat Nov 11, 2017 7:41 pm

TIMOTHYFOSTER wrote:Ultimately, I'm just a little let down that Rosie is a guy, as was envisioning Daryl Hannah (is that her name?) with a love for baseball and strato and have been thinking, "Somewhere out there is one helluva lucky guy." Anyways, gotta go watch a movie with the wife -- there will be no discussion of baseball nor strat in my night after this post and guess the perfect woman still doesn't exist.

sorry to disappoint
xoxo
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bkeat23

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostSun Nov 19, 2017 7:47 pm

You guys can decide if this is too far off....

Softball players hit .500 or don't get much playing time. I've hit .700 a few years in a row, a long time ago. (NOT 1893).
Is it correct that today's manicured softball fields are in better condition that baseball diamonds in 1890?
I know the guys in the field with gloves were better fielders than the players in 1893.

So,not talking about beer leagues, but serious softball, would the teams winning city championships be comparable to the MLB teams of pre-1900?
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Outta Leftfield

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostSun Nov 19, 2017 10:36 pm

I took a quick look at Ross Barnes' 1873 team, the Boston Red Stockings, and at the National Association that they played in. A few differences between that kind of baseball and the more modern variety do sort of jump out at you from the stats.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NA/1873.shtml

The Red Stockings had a team batting average of .340. They scored 739 runs in 60 games. That's 12.3 runs per game. Almost all of their 60 games were started by Al Spalding, who posted a 41-14 record, .745 w/l pct.

The team allowed 183 earned runs in its 60 games, resulting in a 3.07 ERA. But they allowed 460 TOTAL runs, which means that 277 of the runs they allowed (more than 4 per game) were unearned. The team's fielding average was .836, which was a shade better than the league average of .831. This FA is understandable because—if I understand correctly— the first baseball glove weren't worn until two years later, in 1875.

Overall, the majority of runs scored in the National Assoc. in 1873 were unearned: 3580 total runs, 1353 earned runs. League average ERA in 1873 was 3.40, but league average runs scored per game, by each team, was 8.99.

In 1873, the pitcher stood 50 feet away from the batter, throwing underhand to a catcher who had no glove, and therefore couldn't catch anything really fast. The batter could call for a high or low pitch and it took eight balls to make a walk.

To me, that seems like a fundamentally different game—and for me the analogies to slow-pitch softball are real.

That doesn't necessarily mean that players pre-1894 should be excluded, because one of the challenges of managing in SOM is making an effective team out of players from different eras. But it does give one pause.

In order to understand what it means to integrate players from the pre-1894 era into SOM, we need to take a quick look at the normalization rules SOM has applied to position players and to pitchers. First of all, regarding pitchers, SPs can't pitch more often than every 4 days, so Charley Radbourn's best card is never going to reach the 678.2 IPs he produced while starting 73 games in 1884.

The position player normalization feature involves errors. In 1873, Barnes committed 75 errors in 60 games, including 56 at 2b and 19 errors at 3B. His FA was .857 at 2b and .759 at the hot corner. But his card rates him as a 1e30 at 2B. Why? According to the SOM rules, pre-1920 fielders have been normalized to 1920 fielding levels, because otherwise (and I'm paraphrasing here) the results would just be too crazy. See: http://365.strat-o-matic.com/help/hittercard

This normalization has an extreme effect on a player from Barnes's era. Without the normalization, Barnes might be rated in SOM as an 1e175 at 2B instead of 1e30, since he'd likely have committed 175 errors at 2b—or more—in 162 games. A 1e175 error rating, while accurately reflecting the conditions of his time, would have a radical impact on Barnes's price and usage, and it would likely render him unusable against more recent players.

So my discomfort with adding bunches of players from pre-1894 era is partly the effect of SOM's extreme normalization of the radically different fielding environment. Barnes has the advantages of being a player who could bunt fair-foul, hit under-handed pitching he could call to be high or low, and bat against fielders w/o gloves, all of which helped him hit .431. But he doesn't suffer the disadvantages of an environment that produced huge numbers of errors.

That doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the set, but it does help to explain my own discomfort with adding a lot more players from this era.
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thetallguy747

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Re: Ross Barnes

PostSun Nov 19, 2017 11:39 pm

I have to laugh at all of today's armchair experts who think no one born before Babe Ruth could have possibly been an athlete. One of the best athletes in American history was George Washington. He just didn't have our contemporary competitive venues for displaying those skills. But he was, for example, widely considered the best horseman in American, which is more or less the equivalent of being LaBron James today.

I'd also love to somehow bring back a 60 year old Abe Lincoln and have anyone reading this to challenge him to any contest involving physical strength and skill. If you ever come across it, read the autopsy report on Lincoln. The physicians marvel how a man his age could have the incredible athletic body they examined once they disrobed him.

The tradition of "field days" goes way back in our history, with everything closing down for the day so men and boys (sorry ladies) could gather to compete in physical skills.

I haven't ready a whole lot about Ross Barnes. But I bet if he were alive and in his prime today I'd take him over Jed Gyrko at 2B.
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