Barnstormers Finals - Updates, comments, etc

Bill Joyce, 3b for 1894 Washington. .355/.496/.648

1. I should be able to use him for my Twins/Senators franchise teams. I'd like to be able to be over .500 with my favorite franchise growing up (at least at normal salary caps).
2. Also should be a huge small ball addition (my favorite style) at a very thin position for good obp/ops guys.

Thanks for letting us know. I like it!

Players pre 1900 and post 2000 are especially smart selections because it's hard to get them nominated

Any other card choices from the guys on the podium?

Bill Joyce, 3b for 1894 Washington. .355/.496/.648

1. I should be able to use him for my Twins/Senators franchise teams. I'd like to be able to be over .500 with my favorite franchise growing up (at least at normal salary caps).
2. Also should be a huge small ball addition (my favorite style) at a very thin position for good obp/ops guys.

Per Wikipedia:

"Washington, DC has been home to over a dozen baseball organizations since 1872 and is currently represented by the Washington Nationals.

"The Early Years: 1872–1899

"The first professional baseball teams and leagues formed in the late 19th century and several were based in Washington, D.C. Many early teams used the names "Nationals" and "Senators" but were otherwise unrelated organizations.

The National Association Washington Olympics (1871–1872)
The National Association Washington Nationals (1872)
The National Association Washington Blue Legs (1873)
The National Association Washington Nationals (1875)
The Union Association Washington Nationals (1884)
The American Association Washington Nationals (1884)
The National League Washington Nationals (1886–1889)
The American Association Washington Statesmen (1891)
The National League Washington Senators (1892–1899)

"The Washington Senators were a 19th-century baseball team. The team was also known as the Washington Statesmen and the Washington Nationals. The team played at Boundary Field.

"The team started out in the American Association as the Washington Statesmen in 1891. The American Association folded after that season, and the team was purchased by J. Earl Wagner, who would own the team for the remainder of its existence. The Statesmen moved to the National League for the 1892 season, becoming the Senators. When the NL contracted from twelve teams to eight after the 1899 season, the Senators were one of the teams eliminated.

"The Senators did not fare well in their nine years as a franchise, which might have been the reason they were contracted. Washington never had a winning season and compiled a winning percentage of 0.366. Among their more famous players were Deacon McGuire and Hall of Famer Jim O'Rourke."

(In 1901) "After a one-year hiatus, the Senators returned, but they were no longer the same franchise that played at Boundary Field (emphasis added). In fact the Original Senators were the first of three teams, all called the Washington Senators, and were in the Capital continuously until the third Senators franchise left to become the Texas Rangers. The second had left the city in 1960 becoming the Minnesota Twins and were followed immediately by a new expansion team of the same name, ultimately leaving for Texas in 1971. Baseball returned to the Capital in 2005 when the Montreal Expos became the Washington Nationals. The "Washington Senators" name was still owned by the Texas Rangers, so organizers sought other options. Washington, D.C., mayor Anthony A. Williams supported the name "Washington Grays," in honor of the Negro-league team the Homestead Grays (1929-1950), which had been based in Pittsburgh, but played many of their home games in Washington. In the end, the team owners chose the name "Washington Nationals," which had been the official name of the American League's Washington Senators from 1905 to 1955."

Baseball Reference seems to agree, listing the pre 1900 Senators as a 9 season only franchise that existed from 1891 through 1899, first as the Washington Statesman (1891) and then the Senators from 1892 - 1899, when the National League "eliminated" (quoting Wikipedia) the team. Regarding teams that played in Washington D.C., Baseball Reference lists the pre 1900 Statesman/Senators, the Senators/Twins, the Senators/Rangers and the Expos/Nationals all as separate franchises.

Based on the above info, from 1891 through the present, 4 unrelated MLB franchises have called Washington D.C. home. They are the:

1. Washington Statesman (American Association, 1891)/Washington Senators (National League, 1892 - 99);

2. Washington Senators (American League, 1901 - 1960)/Minnesota Twins (American League, 1961 - present);

3. Washington Senators (American League expansion team, 1961 - 1971)/Texas Rangers (American League, 1972 - present);

4. Montreal Expos (National League expansion team, 1969 - 2004)/Washington Nationals (National League, 2005 - present).

It therefore appears Bill Joyce would be ineligible to play for the Senators/Twins franchise, since he played for a Washington Senators franchise in the 1890s in the National League that was completely unrelated to the Senators/Twins franchise that started play in the American League in 1901. Joyce would be no more eligible to play for the Senators/Twins than would be Frank Howard, who played for the Senators/Rangers, as even though their teams shared a common name, they were completely different franchises.

Looking at the ATG8 cards for the Senators/Twins American League franchise (which started in 1901), there is not a single card for any Senator player prior to 1901, lending credence to the likelihood that SOM would not recognize any pre-1900 Senators team as being part of the same franchise.

So if the goal is to enhance the Senators/Twins franchise, the best bet would appear to be to add a player from 1901 or later, as teams bearing the Senators name prior thereto were unrelated franchises.

I was contemplating picking Joyce myself. Either him or a vintage George Davis year, either at SS or 3b. All things considered, I prefer pre 1900 picks especially given the arbitrary moratorium placed on them by he whom I prefer not to name. In any event, I would anticipate the passage of many months before we are called on to make our pick(s), if indeed we get to make them at all. Thus I am not in a rush to announce a pick. I wouldn't be averse to another Speaker card, but would need to see his arm in CF before making that choice given the huge gulf between his two current cards. There's also Eddie Gaedel. His card should put the bogus Ken Smith card to shame.

There's also Eddie Gaedel. His card should put the bogus Ken Smith card to shame.

As a lover of exploits, odd cards, and unrealistic statistical results, I'm all in on Eddie Gaedel.

I was contemplating picking Joyce myself. Either him or a vintage George Davis year, either at SS or 3b. All things considered, I prefer pre 1900 picks especially given the arbitrary moratorium placed on them by he whom I prefer not to name. In any event, I would anticipate the passage of many months before we are called on to make our pick(s), if indeed we get to make them at all. Thus I am not in a rush to announce a pick. I wouldn't be averse to another Speaker card, but would need to see his arm in CF before making that choice given the huge gulf between his two current cards. There's also Eddie Gaedel. His card should put the bogus Ken Smith card to shame.

Good Speaker options
1913 BOS is a 1(-4)25 at all 3 OF positions. Strat might mitigate that big error total...
1916 CLE is a 1(-4)10 in CF only
1917 CLE is a 1(-4)8 at all 3 OF positions
1923 CLE is a 1(-4)13 at all 3 OF positions. His high in Doubles, HR, and RBI, batted .380

I'd rank them offensively: 1923, 1916, 1913, 1917.

Thanks Andy, very useful information. The 1923 season looks good. Can you tell me what his running rating for that year, love the fact that he has seasons with all the OF positions. I never advocated for a new Speaker card because I assumed that his arm weakened over time given his 1920 card. Now my only concerns are running rating (like Cobb he stopped trying to steal when he got older).

Thanks Andy, very useful information. The 1923 season looks good. Can you tell me what his running rating for that year, love the fact that he has seasons with all the OF positions. I never advocated for a new Speaker card because I assumed that his arm weakened over time given his 1920 card. Now my only concerns are running rating (like Cobb he stopped trying to steal when he got older).

He's a 1-16 runner.
Steal rating is (B) *4-6/- (17-12)

It's funny, he's a -4 arm for every card of his career (1907-1928), except for a -1 in 1920 & 1924 and a -2 in 1912