Pre War Outfielders-- Improvement Edition

Many have said that we don't know what we are getting when we nominate cards, so I've taken some time to put some stats together from some cards, using Diamond Dope and Veterans 1975 for the park, since it's kind of neutral (10,10,10,10). I asked Bill for his permission/blessing to do this. So I'll be posting some card add ideas, thoughts, etc to hopefully keep interest up and give folks some stuff to actually discuss on the boards.

My Goals on IMPROVEMENTS:
1--Provide a card that is more representative of a player's career than their current card(s)
2--Provide a card that is fundamentally different than their current cards

1933 Wally Berger, BSB, Bats-R, E Balance, LF-3(-1)e10, RF/CF-4(-1)e10
LH--8.8 2b, 2 3b, 12 HR, 6 BB 374/414/856, 1.271 OPS
RH--8.5 2b, 2 3b, 11.8 HR, 8 BB 373/425/854, 1.280 OPS
Wow, this card has a LOT of HR power. Berger finished 3rd in MVP Voting, and this card would be his best by far.

1942 George Case, WAS, Bats-R, E Balance, LF-1(+2)e18, RF-2(+2)e18, CF-3(+2)e18, Steal:*3-6/-(19-15)
LH--5.2 2b, 0 3b, 1.5 HR, 6 BB 385/425/481, .906 OPS
RH--5.3 2b, 0 3b, 1.7 HR, 6 BB 382/422/484, .906 OPS
Case led the League in Steals 6 times, Thus card has better defense and much better Steal rating than current card.

1938 Ben Chapman, BOS, Bats-R, 1R Balance, RF/LF/CF-3(-1)e13, 2b-3e30, Steal:*4,6/-(16-11)
LH--1.4 2b, 0 3b, 0 HR, 12 BB 448/510/463, .972 OPS
RH--12.1 2b, 2.6 3b, 0.6 HR, 14 BB 419/494/622, 1.116 OPS
Great 1930s combination of speed and power, this card has great OPS, .302 lifetime hitter over 15 seasons, this guy should've been a star, at least give him a better card than the current one he has

1945 Tommy Holmes, BSB, Bats-L, E Balance, RF/LF-3(+1)e6, CF-4(+1)e6
LH--9.1 2b, 1 3b, 10.25 HR, 11 BB 439/501/874, 1.375 OPS
RH--9 2b, 1 3b, 9.7 HR, 11 BB 426/490/843, 1.333 OPS
Led the League in Hits, Doubles, Home Runs, and Total Bases. WWII pitching is almost as good as steroids, apparently.

1928 Heinie Manush, SLB, Bats-L, E Balance, LF-2(+2)e3, RF/LF-3(+2)e3
LH--8.5 2b, 4.8 3b, 3 HR, 3 BB 484/503/745, 1.248 OPS
RH--8.9 2b, 4.8 3b, 2.6 HR, 3 BB 494/513/746, 1.258 OPS
Batted .378 and didn't win the batting title, finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Led League in Hits and Doubles, He's a .330 LIFETIME Hitter, give the man a better card

1940 Rip Radcliff, SLB, Bats-L, 1R Balance, 1b-4e30, LF/RF/CF-4(+1)e9
LH--5.4 2b, 1.7 3b, 0.3 HR, 5 BB 399/432/495, .927 OPS
RH--5.8 2b, 2.1 3b, 0.3 HR, 5 BB 428/460/533, .994 OPS
Led the League in Hits, card is usable at 1b, much improved over his .98m card

1939 Max West, BSB, Bats-L, E Balance, LF-3(-1)e10, RF/CF-4(-1)e10
LH--5.7 2b, 1.5 3b, 9.2 HR, 12 BB 309/393/692, 1.084 OPS
RH--5.7 2b, 1.8 3b, 9.3 HR, 12 BB 313/395/702, 1.090 OPS
Apparently hitting Home Runs in Braves Field in the 1930s gives you a lot of home runs in Strat. Good Power here.

1931 Sam West, WAS, Bats-L, E Balance, CF-1(-1)e5, LF/RF-3(-1)e5
LH--9.8 2b, 3.8 3b, 0.3 HR, 2 BB 377/394/550, .944 OPS
RH--10.3 2b, 3.9 3b, 0.3 HR, 2 BB 361/379/540, .919 OPS
This is better than his current card and gives a good "1" CF to Pre War Senators

Taffy Wright - 1940 Chicago White Sox Bats(L) Balance(E) LF/RFe3 CF-4e3(-1).337/.385/.448
Chick Hafey - 1930 St. Louis Cardinals Bats(R) Balance(1L) LF-2e7(-3) .336/.407/.652
Joe Vosmik - 1935 Cleveland Indians Bats(R) Balance(E) LF/RF/CF-3e5(0) .348/.408/.537

Great threads Andy. I have a few notables that I will be adding to the appropriate threads. Can you post the data for them?

George Watkins 1930 STL Talk about an upgrade. Two cards now, at .55 and .97. 373/415/621

Bob Johnson 1939 A’s .338 .440 .553 .993 Two other lesser cards

Taffy Wright - 1940 Chicago White Sox Bats(L) Balance(E) LF/RFe3 CF-4e3(-1).337/.385/.448
Chick Hafey - 1930 St. Louis Cardinals Bats(R) Balance(1L) LF-2e7(-3) .336/.407/.652
Joe Vosmik - 1935 Cleveland Indians Bats(R) Balance(E) LF/RF/CF-3e5(0) .348/.408/.537

1940 Taffy Wright, CWS, Bats-L, E Balance, LF/RF-3(-1)e11, CF-4(-1)e11
LH--5.3 2b, 2.1 3b, 0 HR, 4 BB 407/435/499, .934 OPS
RH--5.3 2b, 2.1 3b, 0 HR, 4 BB 407/435/499, .934 OPS

1939 Wright (Current Card), WAS, Bats-L, E Balance, LF/RF-3(-1)e13, CF-4(-1)e13
LH--6.2 2b, 3.3 3b, 0.8 HR, 4 BB 349/379/496, .875 OPS
LH--6 2b, 3.2 3b, 0.5 HR, 4 BB 336/367/471, .838 OPS

A .311 lifetime hitter who lost 3 years to WWII. Not a bad upgrade...…..


1930 Chick Hafey, ST, Bats-R, 1L Balance, LF-2(-3)e7
LH--19.3 2b, 4.3 3b, 2 HR, 8 BB 360/425/708, 1.134 OPS
RH--7.5 2b, 3.6 3b, 11 HR, 14 BB 351/453/874, 1.327 OPS

1929 Hafey (Current card), STL, Bats-R, E Balance, LF/RF-2(-3)e8, CF-3(-3)e8
LH--11.6 2b, 2.3 3b, 10.5 HR, 7 BB 410/454/886, 1.340 OPS
RH--11.4 2b, 2.1 3b, 10.2 HR, 7 BB 401/445/863, 1.308 OPS

Why in the world is this guy in the Hall of Fame? Aside from a high doubles number against LHP on the 1930 card, the 1929 Current Card is better in every respect. Don't nee this card.


1935 Joe Vosmik, CLE, Bats-R, E Balance, LF/CF/RF-3(0)e5
LH--9 2b, 5.3 3b, 2.5 HR, 8 BB 443/490/717, 1.207 OPS
RH--8.7 2b, 5 3b, 2.5 HR, 8 BB 438/485/703, 1.188 OPS
Led league in Hits, Doubles, Triples and 3rd in MVP Voting

1934 Vosmik (Current Card), CLE, bats-R, E Balance, LF-3(0)e5
LH--8.7 2b, 0.9 3b, 6.9 HR, 6 BB 365/400/671, 1.071 OPS
RH--11.5 2b, 0 3b, 0.3 HR, 7 BB 435/472/557, 1.029 OPS

Good 1930s hitter, this card is an improvement on his current card (though I like that 1934 card, interesting balance--HRs vs LHP, OBP/AVG vs RHP)

Great threads Andy. I have a few notables that I will be adding to the appropriate threads. Can you post the data for them?

George Watkins 1930 STL Talk about an upgrade. Two cards now, at .55 and .97. 373/415/621

Bob Johnson 1939 A’s .338 .440 .553 .993 Two other lesser cards

1930 George Watkins, STL, Bats-L, 5R Balance, LF/RF-3(-1)e15, CF-4(-1)e15
LH--16.2 2b, 3.5 3b, 0 HR, 0 BB 289/302/508, .810 OPS
RH--8.7 2b, 1.3 3b, 8.8 HR, 5 BB 459/494/832, 1.327 OPS

His other cards are scrub cards. Short career, and 1930 was a huge outlier in the NL. He batted 85 points over his career AVG. I don't usually like outlier cards like this. His career doesn't compare to a lot of guys he'd pass in ATG if we use this card.


1939 Bob Johnson, PHA, Bats-R, E Balance, LF/CF/RF-4(+5)e13, 2b-4e30
LH--4.8 2b, 2 3b, 5.5 HR, 21 BB 430/546/722, 1.268 OPS
RH--4.8 2b, 2 3b, 5.5 HR, 21 BB 424/541/716, 1.257 OPS

1934 Johnson (Current Best Card), PHA, Bats-R, 3R Balance, LF-3(-3)e10
LH--8 2b, 0 3b, 7 HR, 2 BB 293/306/567, .873 OPS
RH--3.4 2b, 1.5 3b, 10 HR, 12 BB 382/451/774, 1.225 OPS

I have TRIED and TRIED to find a better Bob Johnson card. I like this guy a lot. Consistent, fine power hitter from the 1930s who couldn't play defense. AT ALL. His defense is terrible in every card where his offense is good. That 1939 card is simply unusable in the field. He'd be an awesome DH, but so would a lot of other cards we already have in the set.

added 1945 Tommy Holmes to the top post

How about the 1931 Ben Chapman ?

1930 Adam Comorosky?

1931 Chick Hafey (batting champ)

1926 Cliff Heathcote

1935 Woody Jensen

1944 George Metkovich

1940/1943/1944 Bill Nicholson (you choose)

1926 Homer Summa

1944 Dixie Walker

How about the 1931 Ben Chapman ?

1930 Adam Comorosky?

1931 Chick Hafey (batting champ)

1926 Cliff Heathcote

1935 Woody Jensen

1944 George Metkovich

1940/1943/1944 Bill Nicholson (you choose)

1926 Homer Summa

1944 Dixie Walker

1931 Ben Chapman, NYY, Bats-R, E Balance, LF/CF/RF-3(0)e13, 2b-3e30, Steal: *3-6/-(19-15)
LH--3.4 2b, 2.4 3b, 4.5 HR, 14 BB 366/454/599, 1.054 OPS
RH--3.2 2b, 2.3 3b, 4.5 HR, 14 BB 357/446/585, 1.031 OPS

No point in posting his cheap current card. I had listed his 1938 card above at the front of the thread.

1938 Ben Chapman, BOS, Bats-R, 1R Balance, RF/LF/CF-3(-1)e13, 2b-3e30, Steal:*4,6/-(16-11)
LH--1.4 2b, 0 3b, 0 HR, 12 BB 448/510/463, .972 OPS
RH--12.1 2b, 2.6 3b, 0.6 HR, 14 BB 419/494/622, 1.116 OPS

Either card is good and an improvement. I liked the AVG & OBP of the 1938 Card, especially for a guy with speed who could be a leadoff guy. 1931 has more HR power, but not a ton. I think that's why I decided to change my allegiance to the 1938 card.



1930 Adam Comorosky, PIT, Bats-R, 2R Balance, LF/RF-3(+1)e12, CF-4(+1)e12
LH--8 2b, 6 3b, 3.6 HR, 10 BB 268/343/586, .928 OPS
RH--10.8 2b, 6.5 3b, 1.5 HR, 8 BB 368/420/653, 1.073 OPS
Not posting his .50m card. Good XBH. He only had two decent years. If some like him, that's fine. There are other guys I'd rather see who had more of an MLB career.




1931 Chick Hafey, STL, Bats-R, E Balance, LF/RF-2(-3)e5, CF-3(-3)e5
LH--9.4 2b, 2.4 3b, 6.6 HR, 8 BB 441/488/784, 1.272 OPS
RH--9.1 2b, 2.2 3b, 6.6 HR, 8 BB 431/478/767, 1.245 OPS
Led league in batting.
Here are the two Hafey cards listed above:
1930 Chick Hafey, ST, Bats-R, 1L Balance, LF-2(-3)e7
LH--19.3 2b, 4.3 3b, 2 HR, 8 BB 360/425/708, 1.134 OPS
RH--7.5 2b, 3.6 3b, 11 HR, 14 BB 351/453/874, 1.327 OPS

1929 Hafey (Current card), STL, Bats-R, E Balance, LF/RF-2(-3)e8, CF-3(-3)e8
LH--11.6 2b, 2.3 3b, 10.5 HR, 7 BB 410/454/886, 1.340 OPS
RH--11.4 2b, 2.1 3b, 10.2 HR, 7 BB 401/445/863, 1.308 OPS

I don't think 1931 is appreciably better than 1929 current card. A little better OBP with 31, better power with 1929. I wouldn't clutter the set with one that's so similar.


1926 Cliff Heathcote, CHC, Bats-L, E Balance, RF/LF-2(-2)e6, CF-3(-2)e6, Steal: *4-6,12/-(18-13)
LH--7 2b, 0 3b, 2.7 HR, 13 BB 305/395/464, .859 OPS
RH--7 2b, 0 3b, 2.7 HR, 13 BB 305/395/464, .859 OPS

Current 1929 Heathcote, 4.06m, CHC, Bats-L, 1R Balance, RF/LF-2(-2)e7, CF-3(-2)e7, Steal: *4-6,12/-(18-13)
LH--7.8 2b, 0 3b, 0.3 HR, 12 BB 332/413/422, .835 OPS
RH--8.8 2b, 0 3b, 0.3 HR, 12 BB 372/448/473, .921 OPS

Current card looks better.



1935 Woody Jensen, PIT, Bats-L, E Balance, RF/LF-2(+2)e8, CF-3(+2)e8
LH--4.3 2b, 1.2 3b, 1.5 HR, 0 BB 390/395/494, .889 OPS
RH--1.3 2b, 1.4 3b, 0 HR, 1 BB 378/384/476, .860 OPS

Current 1937 Jensen, PIT, Bats-L, 1R Balance, RF/LF-2(+2)e10, CF-3(+2)e10
LH--4.1 2b, 2.4 3b, 1 HR, 0 BB 287/294/398, .692 OPS
RH--4.5 2b, 2.7 3b, 1.1 HR, 0 BB 311/317/434, .751 OPS

An improvement over scrub card.


1944 Catfish Metkovich, BOS, Bats-L, E Balance, RF/LF/CF-2(+2)e18, 1b-3e21
LH--5.60 2.10 2.05 2 1 0.277 0.297 0.429 0.725
RH--5.65 2.10 2.20 2 1 0.278 0.298 0.435 0.733

Current 1951 Metkovich, .90m, PIT, Bats-L, 1R Balance, 1b-3e12, LF/CF-4(+2)e3
LH--3.5 2b, 2.6 3b, 0 HR, 0 BB 294/294/373, .667 OPS
RH--5.1 2b, 0.2 3b, 1.7 HR, 4 BB 316/341/416, .757 OPS

Nope.




1940 Bill Nicholson, CHC, Bats-L, E Balance, CF/LF/RF-4(0)e10
LH--5.6 2b, 1.8 3b, 8.5 HR, 10 BB 351/417/708, 1.125 OPS
RH--5.6 2b, 1.8 3b, 8.5 HR, 10 BB 344/411/702, 1.113 OPS

1943 Bill Nicholson, CHC, Bats-L, E Balance, CF/LF/RF-4(0)e8
LH--4.8 2b, 2 3b, 8.3 HR, 12 BB 333/413/685, 1.098 OPS
RH--4.8 2b, 2 3b, 8.5 HR, 13 BB 345/430/710, 1.140 OPS

1944 Bill Nicholson, CHC, Bats-L, E Balance, CF/LF/RF-4(0)e8
LH--6.2 2b, 1.8 3b, 9.5 HR, 19 BB 302/431/736 1.167 OPS
RH--6.2 2b, 1.8 3b, 9.4 HR, 19 BB 301/430/731, 1.161 OPS

Current 1941 Nicholson. 2.65m, CHC, Bats-L, 1R Balance, RF/LF-4(-1)e8
LH--0.25 2b, 0 3b, 9.2 HR, 11 BB 276/356/566, .922 OPS
RH--5.6 2b, 0 3b, 9.4 HR, 17 BB 258/382/634, 1.016 OPS

Take your pick. They are all somewhat better than current 1941 card. His 1943 and 1944 were war year cards, but he produced about the same in 1940. He'd be a good improvement.




1926 Homer Summa, CLE, Bats-L, E Balance, RF/LF-3(-1)e9, CF-4(-1)e9
LH--5 2b, 0.8 3b, 0.8 HR, 5 BB 349/385/435, .820 OPS
RH--5 2b, 0.8 3b, 0.8 HR, 5 BB 349/385/435, .820 OPS

Current 1929 Summa, .71m, PHA, 3R Balance, RF/LF-3(-1)e7, CF-4(-1)e7
LH--2.8 2b, 0 3b, 0 HR, 0 BB 195/202/221, .423 OPS
RH--4.5 2b, 0 3b, 0 HR, 0 BB 319/325/361, .676 OPS

Definitely better than 1929 scrub card. LOT of cards need to go in before this one though.




1944 Dixie Walker, BKN, Bats-L, 1R Balance, RF/CF/LF-2(0)e12
LH--7.4 2b, 1.8 3b, 3 HR, 15 BB 416/502/632, 1.134 OPS
RH--8 2b, 2.1 3b, 3.3 HR, 15 BB 448/530/687, 1.217 OPS

Current 1945 Walker, 4.59m, E Balance, RF/CF/LF-2(0)e3
LH--8.2 2b, 2.1 3b, 1.4 HR, 13 BB 307/397/484, .881 OPS
RH--8 2b, 2.1 3b, 1.3 HR, 13 BB 297/388/467, ..855 OPS

Ok, The People's Cherce had a long, successful career. H eled the league in hitting in 1944. But, that 1944 season is by far his best, not even close. Does the fact that he did it in 1944 lessen that feat?

How about 1946 Walker, BKN, Bats-L, E Balance, RF/LF-2(0)e8, CF-3(0)e8
LH--5 2b, 2.2 3b, 2 HR, 11 BB 376/445/535, .980 OPS
RH--5.1 2b, 2.2 3b, 2 HR, 11 BB 385/454/547, 1.001 OPS

It's a good representation of him, 116 RBI, #2 in MVP Voting. Or, if folks don't care that his 1944 is way above his norms from facing WWII pitching, go for that.

Paul Waner 1928 1936
Lloyd Waner 1929
Edd Roush 1923 1921
Vince Dimaggio 1940
Dom Dimaggio 1940 (probably wouldn't be his best card but it should be for all outfield positions and I would like a all Dimaggio outfield)
Al Simmons 1927 1931
Roy Cullenbine 1941
Jeff Heath 1938

Edd Roush 1923 1921

I agree that it would be great to get a better Edd Roush card than the one we have.
Here's what OPS+ at baseball-reference.com shows for some potential cards. A lot are pretty close. If we knew which one was actually the best SOM card, we could nominate that. In terms of plain old OPS, 1921 and 1923 are clearly the best years, but we can't be sure how much is SOM adjusting for the hitting environment. The years with the highest OPS+ are deadfall era. Some candidates for Roush:

Year: OPS+
1917: 159
1918: 151 (best in league)
1919: 146
1920: 141
1921: 143
1923: 148
1925: 125 (only current card)
Any of the years listed before 1925 would likely be a significant improvement. So, Andy, if you can guide us toward which year might actually make the best SOM card, or give us a couple of choices, that would be most welcome.