Best fastball ever

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freeman

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Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 9:55 am

Saw this article on the best fastball pitchers. The estimate--based on different tests--was that Nolan Ryan had a 108.5 mph fastball, Bob Feller had a 107.6 mph fastball and Walter Johnson had a 93.8 mph fastball. Imagine trying to hit a 108.5 mph fastball!

https://www.mlb.com/news/lindsay-berra- ... -119564372
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lanier64

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 2:28 pm

What I want to know is what happened to Ryan's face!!!
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freeman

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 4:11 pm

Yeah, why did they use that photo? Bizarre.
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N Texas Widowmakers

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 6:20 pm

lanier64 wrote:What I want to know is what happened to Ryan's face!!!


He got hit in the face with a ground ball from Bo Jackson and kept pitching on 9/8/90.
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Hack Wilson

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 8:56 pm

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but we don't really know about these velocity claims. Seriously doubt Feller or Ryan threw that hard (but hard relative for their era, yes). Those pitches weren't measured the same way they are today, just in hindsight by a scientist who has a theory, but was not there to actually measure the pitches. Even he (Gregg Franklin) said, "So is this definitive? I don't know. I don't think we'll ever really know who threw the hardest, but it's a lot closer than the original numbers suggest."

And, the movie "Fastball" was made in 2015, nothing new here (cool story, if a bit sensational, as would be expected. I watched it several years ago at the Society for American Baseball Research convention in Miami). Fast forward to now when guys are throwing on average with the highest velocity (92.5) of all time. It simply does not statistically compute that at least one contemporary player would not be throwing harder than 107-plus like Ryan and Feller – in other words, were Feller and Ryan mega-outsized outliers for their eras compared to today's best fastball pitchers? No. Even Chapman's 105.8 is below the Feller and Ryan claims, hard to believe.

Yes, much depends on where you measure it: https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories ... the-years/ ... But the point is that you can't compare across different tools used in different eras for measuring fastballs, and what we know today as the most accurate one is the current MLB Statcast system. Before that, it was the Pitch/FX system, before that the Speedgun, Jugs Gun, and so on, all with nuances. No consistent method across the years in measuring fastballs.

BUT, and this is the key point, human sports and athletic performance has advanced so much in recent years that these players are optimized for their talents much more than players of bygone ages. We live in an era of freakish athletes who are better developed, trained, given better nutrition, all to reach their potentials. Doesn't mean the "game" is better (I actually prefer the old school game). Genetically, I believe humanity has always had freakish athletes, of course, but not necessarily the knowledge to properly develop them.

Also, anecdotally, if pitchers many decades ago were throwing SO hard, batters would have immediately begun wearing batting helmets. The fact that batting helmets weren't worn for almost the first 80-90 years of play tells you pitching velocity was not that high for a long time. Batting helmets came into use in the '50s and '60s when velocity began rising.
Last edited by Hack Wilson on Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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coachprbb

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 9:43 pm

All I can say is that Nolan Ryan was cloced at 101.9 crossing the plate...now they measure speed out of the hand...makes quite a difference
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Hack Wilson

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 10:10 pm

I'd like to see a research story by FanGraphs on this issue. Perhaps they've done it, not sure, have to check. Would be interesting.
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freeman

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 10:59 pm

I think Feller's theory is that velocity declined because athletes stopped doing manual labor on the farm and building up muscles from doing that. Clearly, there has been a massive increase in velocity recently. I had always thought that the devices for measuring Feller's velocity--like the motorcycle--were ridiculous but they claim that the test they looked for testing his velocity was accurate. I dont really have any way to check that claim. Since Ryan's speed was checked by radar guns seems like it is harder to question. But again I dont know how accurate those early radar guns were. I have always been one to assume that today's athletes were much better...but if the test of Feller's speed is accurate, wow, that says something. Because it's not like Feller was unhittable back then. Ted Williams' line against him: .349 .478. 685. It would probably cause us to rethink some of our assumptions about how good old-time athletes were...like the best of them were just really good period. You could go back in time pluck guys like the Babe and Ted Williams...and they would hit today's pitchers.
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Hack Wilson

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 11:17 pm

Ryan was clearly a high velocity pitcher for his time, even an outlier, like the outlier guys today. It's been well-documented how hard a human being can throw a baseball -- https://www.wired.com/story/why-its-alm ... ny-faster/

Like you said, it was checked by radar guns (different readings per guns in those days). I'm not sure what this means: "I think Feller's theory is that velocity declined because athletes stopped doing manual labor on the farm and building up muscles from doing that." But while Ted Williams is quite the historical hitter in his era, I do agree that if he had all the benefits of today's sports performance labs and coaching, he'd still be awesome :)

In the above article: “I don’t see it going much higher,” says biomedical engineer Glenn Fleisig (who plays here, let's let him weigh in), research director of the American Sports Medicine Institute and an expert in the biomechanics of pitching. “I'm sorry to say that, but I don’t see it happening. Baseball isn’t like other sports, where we see people running faster or swimming harder or whatever, where today’s records are smashing the records from 10 years ago.”
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milleram

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Re: Best fastball ever

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 12:03 am

I have no clue about how they measure velocity now really--but watching an interview of Leo Mazzone about two weeks ago, he said what ever they post on the scoreboard these days--take 5MPH off at least--it is measured at the release point now--instead of when crossing the plate.
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