Ortiz gets HOF call, Bonds, Clemens shut out -- HOF a Joke

Willie Horton?

really?

For me, there are two aspects to this: A player shouldn't get into the HOF BECAUSE of juicing, and (2) if there are credible allegations of steroid use, I don't see that it is the kind of conduct that strikes at the integrity of the game (like throwing games or betting on baseball) that would warrant exclusion based on character grounds if the player's performance exclusive of steroids warranted HOF admission. I think both Bonds and Clemens had lengthy Hall of Fame careers prior to alleged steroid use and so they should get in. Hopefully, the Veteran's Committee at some point fixes this.

For me, there are two aspects to this: A player shouldn't get into the HOF BECAUSE of juicing, and (2) if there are credible allegations of steroid use, I don't see that it is the kind of conduct that strikes at the integrity of the game (like throwing games or betting on baseball) that would warrant exclusion based on character grounds if the player's performance exclusive of steroids warranted HOF admission. I think both Bonds and Clemens had lengthy Hall of Fame careers prior to alleged steroid use and so they should get in. Hopefully, the Veteran's Committee at some point fixes this.

Problem is we have no way of quantifying the effects of PEDs on performance.

What about the clean players who would have put up HOF numbers had they been competing against only other clean players?

How about Alex Rodriguez, who juiced for his entire career?

I don't pretend to have the answers, but curious to hear your thoughts.

Part of the problem is that MLB looked the other way, even glorified these players at the supposed height of their juicing.


And the age old argument, where do we draw the line at performance enhancement? Tommy John surgery? Any rehabilitative surgery? Lasik eye treatments? Thumb guards? The players use the tools at their disposal. MLB is supposed to govern the game in the moment, not 20 years later.

I say let them in.

PJ and Max hit on the points I was thinking as well. There is no way to unscramble the egg—MLB enjoyed the press of big numbers and facilitated an environment that emphasized it.
It just makes the process look farsical and vindictive because there is no way ortiz or baines for that matter, were more ballplayer than bonds or clemens.

The sport has never had a time of controlled purity. Whether that meant breaking known or unknown rules, PEDs have always been a part of sport, but where to draw the line has no clean solution looking backward.

Have to set a start point that everyone understands and is equitably enforced.

for me it is not so much that ortiz got in, but at who got excluded. these were not his peers. not on the same level.

Members of the same group that excluded Bonds and Clemens from the HOF gave out 7 MVP's and Cy Young awards to them. If they feel so self righteous now, how did they vote in the moment while the players were performing under the same cloud that exists today.

IMO, if MBL sanctioned their performance with these awards and did not put any [*] on their records, then why should clearly two of the best players at their positions be excluded from recogniton that MBL technically already gave them?

If this is about PED's, then the players/executives (already in the HOF) who sought to keep baseball white only should be excluded as they essentially beefed up their performances by not competing against potentially better players.

You need look no further than the Sosa/McGwire Home Run Race to confirm that MLB had no problem with PED's ... Until they decided that they did.

Let them in.

For me, there are two aspects to this: A player shouldn't get into the HOF BECAUSE of juicing, and (2) if there are credible allegations of steroid use, I don't see that it is the kind of conduct that strikes at the integrity of the game (like throwing games or betting on baseball) that would warrant exclusion based on character grounds if the player's performance exclusive of steroids warranted HOF admission. I think both Bonds and Clemens had lengthy Hall of Fame careers prior to alleged steroid use and so they should get in. Hopefully, the Veteran's Committee at some point fixes this.

Problem is we have no way of quantifying the effects of PEDs on performance.

What about the clean players who would have put up HOF numbers had they been competing against only other clean players?

How about Alex Rodriguez, who juiced for his entire career?

I don't pretend to have the answers, but curious to hear your thoughts.

Those are good points. That other players played "clean" and have been penalized argues for Clemens/Bonds being penalized. It appears that PEDs were very good at increasing performance but I just thought Clemens and Bonds were HOF players prior to their use.

Also, methamphetamine use was rampant during the Steriods Era with far more players using them than steroids It is not as if the game has ever been pristine. Still, I don't think players should get in if their numbers were based on steroids. To me, it's going to be much harder what to do with players whose career started in 1990 to about 2005 or so (the ERA ended about 2012-13 but players who started after 2005 or at least closer to 2010 would have to have put a lot of numbers after the Era ended) I'm not ok with them getting in if their career was based on PEDs. No way.

Willie Horton?

really?

That is the reply of someone who is not much of a baseball fan who is Impressed by inflated PED numbers.

Not that it matters, but Willie Horton used his fame to appeal for peace instead of dropping F bombs.

I'll preface this by saying I'm all for dropping the steroid ban and putting that era's players into the HOF where they belong, but...

Anyone who thinks Ortiz doesn't belong in the HOF didn't experience the 14 years where he transformed the Red Sox from the punchline of every Yankee fan to the winningest team in the 21st century.

They have yet to come up with the stat that captures his full impact on that franchise and that city. I doubt they ever will, and I hope they never try. Some things can't be measured, they just are.

Now we get to the bias of the matter. Ortiz isn't 1/100 the man Willie Horton is. Not a Tiger fan ,but what Willie did for Detroit on and off the field is at the very least equal to Big Pedi.

Baseball exists outside the arrogant narrow Boston-Yankee world.