platoon subs

stupid question #1 (or 3 if you count my previous posts lol)

My CF platoon is Cedeno (against RHP) and Kuntz (against LHP)
My RF platoon is Bush (against RHP) and Davis (against LHP) with Alex Johnson being a backup also, but he pinch hit without staying in game

I understand if any of those players started the game (against opposite throwing pitchers), that if they come up later in the game and the pitcher has changed to the same side (RHP against RHB for example), then their platoon sub would pinch hit for them

in recent game, their opponent inserted a LHP (smith) and computer rightfully pinch hit for my next two guys, one of which was a platoon change (the other a straight pinch hit, no other impact).....that happened in 6th inning below

TOP OF INNING 6
SUBSTITUTION at P: Al Smith (L)
SUBSTITUTION at PH: Tommy Davis (R) (role: platoon PH)
0 T.Davis 5-8 Double (CF) b-2 F9
SUBSTITUTION at PH: Alex Johnson (R) (role: PH vs. L)
0 2 A.Johnson 1-7 Strike Out b-0 F9
1 2 J.Votto 1-6 Double (CF) 2-H b-2 F9
1 2 T.Williams 6-8 Ground Out (2B) 2-3 b-0 gb(2B)x F9
2 3 J.Kent 6-8 Ground Out (2B) b-0 gb(2B)x F9

so, I understand now, Davis would replace Bush in RF

however, before the bottom of the inning (6th) but TAKES IT ON ITSELF !!!!???? to sub Davis into CF, and move my CF to RF ????

BOTTOM OF INNING 6
SUBSTITUTION at P: Chad Bradford (R)
SUBSTITUTION at CF: Tommy Davis
SUBSTITUTION at RF: Roger Cedeno
0 M.Huggins 3-6 Fly Out (CF) b-0 F9
1 A.Rodriguez 4-10 Single (CF) b-1 fly(CF)x F9
SUBSTITUTION at P: Juan Agosto (L)
SUBSTITUTION at PH: Mike Blowers (R) (role: platoon PH)
1 1 M.Blowers 2-4 Ground Out (SS) Double Play 1-o b-0 F9

Cedeno SHOULD HAVE stayed in CF, there was no injury, and nothing in my settings has him connected to RF
Davis SHOULD HAVE replaced Bush DIRECTLY in RF, there was no injury and nothing in my settings has him connected to CF

it gets worse, in the bottom of the following inning (7th), the computer COMPOUNDS its errors by replacing Ted "MF-ing" Williams, the Splendid Splinter, who I have set to NEVER remove for late inning replacement, nor pinch run, etc, and moves my RF, who had previously been idiotically moved to CF, and now is being idiotically moved to LF......the player put into CF (kuntz), is set as a late inning def replacement and/or platoon for CF, so his inserting isn't a problem, but Davis should have never been moved to CF, and then replacing my best player Williams in LF

BOTTOM OF INNING 7
SUBSTITUTION at C: John Wockenfuss
SUBSTITUTION at LF: Tommy Davis
SUBSTITUTION at CF: Rusty Kuntz
SUBSTITUTION at PH: Mark Brouhard (R) (role: platoon PH)
0 M.Brouhard 5-4 Ground Out (3B) b-0 bpSI 0 F9
1 M.Piazza 1-9 Fly Out (RF) b-0 F9
2 A.Jones 3-3 Walk b-1 F9
SUBSTITUTION at P: Frank Wickware (R) (role: RH Specialist)
Stolen Base 1-2 F9
2 2 D.Evans 6-4 Fly Out (CF) b-0 F9

WTF ?????????????????????

it gets REALLY worse

it's bottom of the 8th, and I only have two catchers rostered,,,,Wockenfus had already replaced Delancey in platoon switch and barring injury, should NEVER be taken out of the game, unless he started, a LHP pitched the entire game, and Delancey comes in as a def replacement.....INSTEAD, the computer, TAKES IT ON ITSELF to WTF ??????????, sub my starting 3b Beltre in at catcher ????.....WTF for ?????.....then it replaces my 2nd best hitter Kent, at 2B, who is also set to NOT be removed, and moves Kent to 3b ???? WTF for ?????

BOTTOM OF INNING 8
SUBSTITUTION at C: Adrian Beltre
SUBSTITUTION at 2B: John Ward
SUBSTITUTION at 3B: Jeff Kent
SUBSTITUTION at LF: Roger Cedeno
SUBSTITUTION at RF: Ted Page
0 M.Machado 2-8 Single (LF) b-1 F9
SUBSTITUTION at PH: Cliff Pennington (S)
0 1 C.Pennington 6-4 Fly Out (LF) b-0 F9
1 1 M.Huggins 5-3 Single (P) 1-2 b-1 gb(P)x F9
1 12 A.Rodriguez 1-7 Walk 2-3 1-2 b-1 F9
1 123 M.Blowers 5-8 Force Play (2B) 3-H 2-3 1-o b-1 gb(2B)x F9
2 1 3 M.Brouhard 5-2 Single (RF) 3-H 1-3 b-1 bpHR 1-20 F9
2 1 3 M.Piazza 2-4 Foul Out (SS) b-0 bpSI 0 F9

A lot to read there, and hard to really follow without knowing everyone’s card makeup….so maybe some general comments will help:

- the catcher situation: I’ve been victimized by that as well…generally because I have a poor def C set to remove for defensive sub, and Hal ignores the fact that the other C on my roster is either injured or is otherwise out of the game for whatever reason (eg., pinch hit, pinch run,etc). So I end up with a non-C subbing in at catcher. (Very rare, but has happened).

- not sure of the OF pos priorities…but switching from cf to RF for instance, can sometimes be driven by an outfielder being moved to his primary defensive position (even if it’s not optimal for your lineup…yeah, I know, it sucks).

Anyway - the engine does a good job in general, but sometimes, IMHO, there are so many variables involved that it makes a less than optimal change to your lineup.

Wow, that is stupid.
I agree that the engine usually does a good job, but in this case perhaps you had too much going (platoons and defensive settings) and it blew a fuse.

You shouldn't have to - and frankly, adding another setting might add to Hal's confusion - but if this happens again you might want to set Ted Williams as your LF Defensive Replacement.

there is alot going on here.

As for CF, yes, HAL will move Roger Cedeno out of CF because he is a 4. I don't know which Tommy Davis card you have, but considering you are using him as a platoon, I suspect it is 61 at 1.29 million, meaning he is a 3 in CF. If so, HAL made a good move. 4s in CF are a death trap. Now, the next move, outside of removing Williams, makes sense also at least defensively. That Davis card, again assuming it's the 1.29m is a 2 in left (better than any Williams defensively) and Kuntz is a 2 in center, better than Davis was.

The 3rd move is dumb, but at the same time, Ward is a 2 at second and Kent a 3, so that is a defensive upgrade also. I don't understand why Wockenfuss came out, but HAL does have a difficult time with C on occasion.

So, in my mind, the moral of the story is that HAL really was trying to improve your defense, and he did that for the most part, outside of taking out your C.

I don't understand when you say you have them set to not be removed. I don't believe there is a don't remove setting. There is a don't pinch hit for, and a remove for defense, but what is this don't remove setting you mention?

thank you (and all) last 3 commenters, every input I receive here has helped somehow...either helping me make an adjustment, or a "misery loves company" lament that we both have experienced, so MUCHO appreciation, thank you ALL

firstly, I now understand why the CF was moved, and yes, the person (Keyzik ?) who pointed it out, thank you....I didn't understand or see anywhere in rules that a CF "would be moved by Hal", WITHOUT any input or instruction from the real life human manager. And yes, all your calculations were correct, about Davis, and Cedeno, and even Kuntz (a CF-2, albeit with a funny name) going there.....what I "DON'T" understand, is yes, I have Ted Williams to NOT be PH or PR for, and to NOT be subbed defensively, (that's what I meant, I know there's not a "DONT SUB FOR ANY REASON" button), but will that happen to every team ?....will $15 million Babe Ruth, or Mantle or other stud (I won't mention PED boys), be taken out willynilly/arbitrarily, by HAL ????.....very often the replacements HAL makes aren't even upgrading defense, it's just putting one 4 replacing another 4......

is there any way to prevent studs from being removed like this ?

to that extent, one commenter said (thank u if it works), to put Williams as a DEF replacement in LF....he is the starter there, so I'm also supposed to (and allowed to ?) put him as the sub ?.....so in essence if HAL gets an urge to start replacing half the team, he might get bamboozled and just keep Williams in ?...was that the gist ?

Lastly, thank you last commenter I think Chris, I realize Ward is a mild upgrade at 2B with a 2 rating, than Kent's 3....but, i also have Kent to not be PH or PR or subbed for defensively......and Kent was moved to 3B to replace Beltre who is a 2 there, but Kent is a 4.....so, I don't understand how removing a 3-2B and a 2-3B for a 2-2B and a 4-3B is better, especially with the huge offensive downgrade from Kent to Ward ?

lastly, is there any work around for that catcher (Kreznik?) issue ?.....due to the platoon, if the better defender starts, and then is replaced by the worst (Wockenfuss), as you said, delancey (a 2-rating) won't be available to sub defensively....;in fact, he would ideally (if I had my say) only be subbed defensively if Wockenfus started against a LHP and that pitcher or all other LHP only pitched against him and Delancey was never subbed in a a platoon.....

does a team need to carry 3 catchers if employing a platoon with 2 of them, and one of that platoon is a poor defender ?

sorry for all the questions, and I do applaud all for understanding 99%-100% of what I meant.....I tried to provide as much info as possible, but as (keznik ?) said, nobody could see the exact cards (though some made great and accurate guesses), so in future I'll try to learn to explain better

I know SOM, i played the snot out of it as a kid and young adult, then lost opportunity (and my ex-roomie threw out all my cards and games arghhhh), for many years, and only in past 10 have tried to dabble in the online stuff, never joining any paid league until now.....

admittedly, without the ability to manage each and every AB, it's a learning curve to try and understand all these nuances, and again, thank you everyone for contributing.....as I learn, i will also try to help others reciprocally and with the same good karma you guys show

blessings and happy 2024

see here is why I am continuing to be really confused

Earlier replies said HAL will move the best defender to CF

but as in this case, it was the opposite....twice.....in the same half-inning

my best CF defender (other than Page who was correctly subbed into RF in the same series of moves) was Kuntz, a -2, who had already played and been replaced by Cedeno (a -4)...but Cedeno can play CF on his card, and he was replaced (simple def sub seemingly) with a WORSE defender that DOESNT play CF on his card, Alex Johnson who is only a RF/LF, and also a -4, but with a worse arm (+2 to 0) and a worse error rating (6 to 4).....then, later, ANOTHER PLAYER who doesnt play CF Bob Thurman who only plays RF/LF on card, and is a -5 Def rating ???????????????????????????

why in the world would it do this, or things like that ?....why downgrade TWICE for NO REASON AT ALL ???

Field of Dreams TurdHerders Row
Hitters AB R H RBI BA
J. Votto 1B 4 2 3 0 .288
R. Kuntz CF 4 1 2 3 .365
B - R. Cedeno PH,CF 1 0 0 0 .222
G - A. Johnson CF 0 0 0 0 .213
H - B. Thurman CF 0 0 0 0 .083
J. Kent 2B 3 0 1 0 .278
E - J. Ward 2B 0 0 0 0 .303
T. Williams LF 4 0 0 0 .340
T. Davis RF 4 0 1 0 .250
C - R. Bush PH 1 0 0 0 .267
F - T. Page RF 0 0 0 0 .071
J. Wockenfuss C 4 0 0 0 .337
D - B. Delancey PH,C 1 0 0 0 .253
A. Beltre 3B 3 2 2 0 .335
J. Cronin SS 4 1 2 0 .280
K. Holtzman P 4 0 0 0 .054
Totals 37 6 11 3

Pitchers IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
K. Holtzman (W, 5-8) 9 9 2 2 1 4 1 139 4.38
Totals 9 9 2 2 1 4 1

A-Pinch Hit For Waddell In 7th Inning
B-Pinch Hit For Kuntz In 8th Inning
C-Pinch Hit For Davis In 8th Inning
D-Pinch Hit For Wockenfuss In 8th Inning
E-Subbed Defensively (2B) For Kent In 8th Inning
F-Subbed Defensively (RF) For Bush In 8th Inning
G-Subbed Defensively (CF) For Cedeno In 8th Inning
H-Subbed Defensively (CF) For Johnson In 9th Inning

I agree with Chris, I have had the same thing happen with other players and have found that HAL will move an OF to the positiion that is their first listed position regardless of your instructions.

based on Chris and other commenter's advice, I am extrapolating to believe that

it is NEVER a good idea to start of even employ in a platoon, someone NOT in their original position ?

because, seemingly, if so, at some point, regardless of team instructions or settings, HAL will move that player back to his original position, which may completely throw one or more monkey wrenches into your team's lineup and performance ?

is that someone experience GMs avoid ?

or is there any work around to that ?

(one commenter suggested putting the same player, for example Ted Williams, as his own backup ?....the Splinter as the starter and #1 backup, for example, so in case HAL gets a thorn up its jockstrap and wants to move another player whose original position is LF, that it might throw a snag into HALs plans, but in effect, protect the GMs plans to keep Williams in the game always ?....does that work, setting a player to be his own backup ?....should that even be extended to the 2nd backup as well ?)

sorry for rambling question, I understand Chris and commenter's points, I'm trying to use that understanding to determine what is the best game play....thus the query above about avoiding starting players anywhere except their original positions

thank you guys

Can you post a link to your team or specific game(s)? Might make it easier for us to decipher

https://365.strat-o-matic.com/team/1752650

but ive made some transactions and some of the guys mentioned above (Cedeno being moved to his original position), and Thurman (horrible defender coming in as a strict def. replacement, when none was warranted, i.e. the player he replaced wasn't injured, and had not been hit for, nor was he set to avoid any kind of pitcher.....it was just HAL replacing a 4 defender with a 5)

so, not sure if the roster link will help much

really just wishing to know

1) is it NOT a good idea ever to start a player out of his original (first listed) position ?......because it seems at some point in the game, HAL is gonna get pine tar up his jock and wanna move that guy back to that original position, regardless of who he would be replacing

2) is the suggestion of setting a good (someone you don't want removed) player as his own backup(s) credible ?....does that work ?

it seems that HAL and the game is a lot of trial, error, and observation, and I realize all of you have a lot more of that under the belt, and seems sometimes even the strongest expert still doesnt know everything about HAL, game, etc. due to circumstances beyond his control.....hence, the query....I read the complete "newbie" article, and thank you for whoever suggested it (Palmatana ?), but couldn't find anything about the above two questions, thanx