Here it is, a Friday, no Frenzy Leagues, no era Theme Leagues, no $100K leagues that I see, no Combo Theme Leagues. Don't get me wrong, I have 20 + teams running.
What do you do when you have credits and nobody to play with.
Anyone want to develope a meaningful experience using ATG2. The last time I did this I put up $50 to the finalists and was joined by the famous Bobby who matched me. It must have been what I needed as the team is in first at the 100 game mark.
HAS ATG2 DRIED UP
13 posts
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HAS ATG2 DRIED UP
by rschwartz51 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:34 pm
- rschwartz51
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by PJ Axelsson » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:44 pm
Too many teams, themes, and leagues.
I do look forward to ATG III, though!
8)
I do look forward to ATG III, though!
8)
- PJ Axelsson
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Millercorps » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:06 pm
I don't have time to comb the threads but has Sporting News mentioned ATG III or are we just that bored along with wishfull thinking?
- Millercorps
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by rschwartz51 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:30 pm
The comments regarding ATG3 is that its a target for 2006 but all indications are that it would be a late 3rd quarter or early 4th quarter release.
My concerns are related to the message board and what I see as the lack of actual activity. I've posted messages and a week later its on the first page even though there were no replies.
Once in awhile a thread that is great comes up such as the one about the best non - online cards you've seen.
I've thought about tournaments such as Bobby's Manager of the Year Tourney even though the last record had me in last thru 6 rounds. I did get to the finals so there is hope.
My concerns are related to the message board and what I see as the lack of actual activity. I've posted messages and a week later its on the first page even though there were no replies.
Once in awhile a thread that is great comes up such as the one about the best non - online cards you've seen.
I've thought about tournaments such as Bobby's Manager of the Year Tourney even though the last record had me in last thru 6 rounds. I did get to the finals so there is hope.
- rschwartz51
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Simon31 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:56 pm
It has been a little slow. I think some , like myself with 4 kids, are still recovering from Christmas shopping! It seems to go in spurts though. Some leagues posted have filled in a couple nights, others remain for much longer. Maybe soome are playing more public leagues? :?
- Simon31
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Denorien » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:03 pm
My favorite face to face (or play by mail) leagues years ago were the continuation leagues where you could (potentially) keep a player for their entire career. Each year you could 'protect' a significant portion of your roster and then draft new, young players who had just come up or come into their own. It made sense to read about the minors and colleges as you would then have a handle on the primo talent. Trading had a slightly different flavor as older players weren't as valuable as younger players. And if you did do your research and traded for draft picks, you could make a killing drafting kids.
Anyway, creating a theme that mimics player aging and a 'career' is a bit of work. Penngrey's website, www.sportsfantasytools.com, almost has all the necessary functionality to automate a limited pool of teams to draft from and to set up unique 'supplemental' rounds as needed. This is how I imagine it working.
The general theme is that 24 teams start as the original pool to draft from. At the end of each season, 4 of the pool teams are going to 'retire' and 4 new teams will be selected to replace them. The key is with season 1. When the 24 teams are randomly selected to be in the pool, they are further broken into 6 groups of 4 and assigned 'ages' 1 through 6. Teams age '6' will retire after season 1. Age '5' teams retire after season 2. Age '4' teams retire after season 3. Age '3' retire after season 4. Etc. Suppose the '27 yankees are selected as part of the original 24 teams and then assigned age '6'. You will know ahead of time that Ruth is only going to play 1 season and then retire. Who drafts him in what round for only one season? The 4 new teams selected for season 2's draft will have 6 years of a career ahead of them. When you are picking your players, you'll have to be careful not to pick too many players from the 'older' teams. And the young players will definitely be at a premium. Trading draft picks for players takes on a slightly different flavor, too. Do you build your team to peak for a couple years and then 'crash' when several of your stars retire over the course of 1 or 2 seasons? Do you trade your 1st round pick for Mays in his last season because you think he will put you over the top? Or are you willing to trade Mays in his last season for a #2 draft pick when you know you won't get anything for him after he retires? If the league goes on long enough, career records actually have a little meaning as no one plays more then 6 seasons.
Considerations:
1. This kind of league requires an extended commitment. The 'career' flavor kicks in right away, but the real enjoyment won't come until 3 or 4 seasons go by.
2. There probably needs to be an assistant or co-commissioner. This is a lot to administrate.
3. The league is not democratic. The rules are too stringent due to the nature of the theme. You decide up front about the some of the details, and then it doesn't change.
4. We'd probably need to have a soft salary cap. It would start out at $80 million. But after season one, there would have to be a provision for going over $80 million legally.
5. There would have to be a correction mechanism. This might be something that has to be gauged after season 3, 4, and 5. Some poorer GMs might screw themselves and get to a point where they're fielding $70 million teams or less. This could be addressed with supplemental rounds. If your team salary falls below $75 million, you start to get supplemental picks.
6. Similarly, supplemental picks for losing the very best players ($7 - $8 million or more) may make sense.
Of course, the salary cap isn't entirely unlimited.
Thoughts?
Anyway, creating a theme that mimics player aging and a 'career' is a bit of work. Penngrey's website, www.sportsfantasytools.com, almost has all the necessary functionality to automate a limited pool of teams to draft from and to set up unique 'supplemental' rounds as needed. This is how I imagine it working.
The general theme is that 24 teams start as the original pool to draft from. At the end of each season, 4 of the pool teams are going to 'retire' and 4 new teams will be selected to replace them. The key is with season 1. When the 24 teams are randomly selected to be in the pool, they are further broken into 6 groups of 4 and assigned 'ages' 1 through 6. Teams age '6' will retire after season 1. Age '5' teams retire after season 2. Age '4' teams retire after season 3. Age '3' retire after season 4. Etc. Suppose the '27 yankees are selected as part of the original 24 teams and then assigned age '6'. You will know ahead of time that Ruth is only going to play 1 season and then retire. Who drafts him in what round for only one season? The 4 new teams selected for season 2's draft will have 6 years of a career ahead of them. When you are picking your players, you'll have to be careful not to pick too many players from the 'older' teams. And the young players will definitely be at a premium. Trading draft picks for players takes on a slightly different flavor, too. Do you build your team to peak for a couple years and then 'crash' when several of your stars retire over the course of 1 or 2 seasons? Do you trade your 1st round pick for Mays in his last season because you think he will put you over the top? Or are you willing to trade Mays in his last season for a #2 draft pick when you know you won't get anything for him after he retires? If the league goes on long enough, career records actually have a little meaning as no one plays more then 6 seasons.
Considerations:
1. This kind of league requires an extended commitment. The 'career' flavor kicks in right away, but the real enjoyment won't come until 3 or 4 seasons go by.
2. There probably needs to be an assistant or co-commissioner. This is a lot to administrate.
3. The league is not democratic. The rules are too stringent due to the nature of the theme. You decide up front about the some of the details, and then it doesn't change.
4. We'd probably need to have a soft salary cap. It would start out at $80 million. But after season one, there would have to be a provision for going over $80 million legally.
5. There would have to be a correction mechanism. This might be something that has to be gauged after season 3, 4, and 5. Some poorer GMs might screw themselves and get to a point where they're fielding $70 million teams or less. This could be addressed with supplemental rounds. If your team salary falls below $75 million, you start to get supplemental picks.
6. Similarly, supplemental picks for losing the very best players ($7 - $8 million or more) may make sense.
Of course, the salary cap isn't entirely unlimited.
Thoughts?
- Denorien
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
Response to Suggested 6 Year League
by rschwartz51 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:07 pm
These are my initial thoughts after reading the above suggested league:
1) Not sure I wouldn't increase the salary cap as it seems that a great player with a high number like a 5 or a 6 would more than likely be lost in a league with $80m.
2) I know I could commit to a 6 season theme if it was the correct theme and play and draft as required. However, I would be able to handle the administration of this type of league.
3) Don't know if inexperience ATG members should be allowed to join. This type of theme must have members who have a track record of not pulling out after a season or two.
4) A small thing but is there a reason the numbers couldn't be inversed so a 1 means his career is over after 1 season. I found myself thinking that if I have a player with a 3 my head will overload trying to calculate that his career is over after season 4.
5) The concept of career stats is good but since many players stats would be lost since their career's end after a few years.
6) I agree with your premise that the best league's are those where they have continuation and draft of new players. I will see if this generates new idea's but it may be a bit to complex. I like the basic premise though.
1) Not sure I wouldn't increase the salary cap as it seems that a great player with a high number like a 5 or a 6 would more than likely be lost in a league with $80m.
2) I know I could commit to a 6 season theme if it was the correct theme and play and draft as required. However, I would be able to handle the administration of this type of league.
3) Don't know if inexperience ATG members should be allowed to join. This type of theme must have members who have a track record of not pulling out after a season or two.
4) A small thing but is there a reason the numbers couldn't be inversed so a 1 means his career is over after 1 season. I found myself thinking that if I have a player with a 3 my head will overload trying to calculate that his career is over after season 4.
5) The concept of career stats is good but since many players stats would be lost since their career's end after a few years.
6) I agree with your premise that the best league's are those where they have continuation and draft of new players. I will see if this generates new idea's but it may be a bit to complex. I like the basic premise though.
- rschwartz51
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Denorien » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:04 am
Bob:
I agree with pretty much everything you say....
1. Salary cap rules would have to be carefully considered.... A hard cap makes it extremely difficult to trade players for picks or players of different ages. Scenarios would have to be 'thought through'.... A GM should be able to sacrifice the future by drafting (or trading for) seemingly undesireable stars who only have 1 year left. Of course, this might take the GM over the cap. If you use the $80m cap year one, you can then use the 100m league afterwards to have the flexibility. If you use $100m cap year one, then you have to use $200m year 2 and onwards. The way to really 'control' the salary cap thing is by number of teams in the pool. Maybe the numbers work better if there is only 21 teams in the pool (and only three teams 'retire' each seaon). Also, in addition to having supplemental rounds for lost stars (maybe) and definitely for teams that fall under $75 m or $70 m, you also penalize teams that go over $85m (lose your 2nd rd pick) or $90m (lose your 1).
2. In truth, it is potentially more then 6 seasons. As the original pool 'retires' and new teams come in, the retired teams go to the 'back of the pack'. Then after they are out for a few seasons, maybe they become eligible to come back in. Of course, a GM wouldn't retain the rights to a player they had 5 seasons ago who is now coming back in. This isn't as cludgey as it seems. It is only a name on a card. We would have to think a little about how teams recycle. It can't be completely random nor completely fixed. Probably a team should stay out 4 seasons.
3. Exactly. No inexperienced players. In fact, I think this kind of league should be recruited.
4. By the way, I wouldn't be able to be commish or asst commish. I'm too busy with my job. But, I WOULD love to play in this league and I am a former face to face and play by mail commissioner many times over who has ran some pretty detailed leagues with lengthly constitutions (I think this league would need a constitution). I could act as a sounding board for throwing the ideas around with whoever was commish. As for my own credentials, you can look up my ATG2 record. Plus I am in 2 theme leagues right now with several other highly regarded GMs. One league is the 50/60/80/100/200 flavor (we're just setting up the 200 league, now) and the other is a very watered down version of this conversation that is in the finals of season 4 (we may lose our first GM after this season).
5. Of course, age 1 and age 6 are interchangeable. If there is a difference it is that players start out age '1' and get 'older' until age '6' after which they retire. Or they start out age '6' and get younger.... I agree, remembering that age 3 players retire in 4 years is odd. It is really that players only play until they're '6'. But in season 1, we have to divide the players among the ages artificially and it could lead to confusion for a season or two. Part of the reason why a constitution spelling out the rules and recruiting your GMs are desireable. You can make sure everyone is experienced, committed, and understands.
6. The career stats only start to make sense after at least 4 or more seasons. But, if the league 'catches on', it will go more then 6 seasons. I think it goes all the way until ATG3 is released. AND you may see other groups of 12 adopt the style and start their own 'career' leagues.
7. Lastly, I would recruit penngrey right away and get him to complete the functionality on www.sportsfantasytools.com to support the limited draft pool and the creation of the supplemental rounds. Plus, there also needs to be a provision for trading players for picks or 1 pick for 2 picks. Again, penngrey's site 'is' designed for this. He just hasn't completed coding it. I've had a few conversations with him about these two functionalities without really spelling out the league theme in detail last summer. He could be energized if approached properly. Believe me, manually tracking the ages of all the players drafted (and undrafted, but remaining in the pool), AND the team salary caps plus the manual creation of the supplemental round orders will be a lot of work. You don't want to have to produce a new spreadsheet every season for all the players in the draft pool plus run the draft manually in a post. Bad juju.
A lot to throw around. Why I think there needs to be a constitution, no democracy, penngrey's site, and having to recruit 11 other GMs.
Am I nuts or what?
I agree with pretty much everything you say....
1. Salary cap rules would have to be carefully considered.... A hard cap makes it extremely difficult to trade players for picks or players of different ages. Scenarios would have to be 'thought through'.... A GM should be able to sacrifice the future by drafting (or trading for) seemingly undesireable stars who only have 1 year left. Of course, this might take the GM over the cap. If you use the $80m cap year one, you can then use the 100m league afterwards to have the flexibility. If you use $100m cap year one, then you have to use $200m year 2 and onwards. The way to really 'control' the salary cap thing is by number of teams in the pool. Maybe the numbers work better if there is only 21 teams in the pool (and only three teams 'retire' each seaon). Also, in addition to having supplemental rounds for lost stars (maybe) and definitely for teams that fall under $75 m or $70 m, you also penalize teams that go over $85m (lose your 2nd rd pick) or $90m (lose your 1).
2. In truth, it is potentially more then 6 seasons. As the original pool 'retires' and new teams come in, the retired teams go to the 'back of the pack'. Then after they are out for a few seasons, maybe they become eligible to come back in. Of course, a GM wouldn't retain the rights to a player they had 5 seasons ago who is now coming back in. This isn't as cludgey as it seems. It is only a name on a card. We would have to think a little about how teams recycle. It can't be completely random nor completely fixed. Probably a team should stay out 4 seasons.
3. Exactly. No inexperienced players. In fact, I think this kind of league should be recruited.
4. By the way, I wouldn't be able to be commish or asst commish. I'm too busy with my job. But, I WOULD love to play in this league and I am a former face to face and play by mail commissioner many times over who has ran some pretty detailed leagues with lengthly constitutions (I think this league would need a constitution). I could act as a sounding board for throwing the ideas around with whoever was commish. As for my own credentials, you can look up my ATG2 record. Plus I am in 2 theme leagues right now with several other highly regarded GMs. One league is the 50/60/80/100/200 flavor (we're just setting up the 200 league, now) and the other is a very watered down version of this conversation that is in the finals of season 4 (we may lose our first GM after this season).
5. Of course, age 1 and age 6 are interchangeable. If there is a difference it is that players start out age '1' and get 'older' until age '6' after which they retire. Or they start out age '6' and get younger.... I agree, remembering that age 3 players retire in 4 years is odd. It is really that players only play until they're '6'. But in season 1, we have to divide the players among the ages artificially and it could lead to confusion for a season or two. Part of the reason why a constitution spelling out the rules and recruiting your GMs are desireable. You can make sure everyone is experienced, committed, and understands.
6. The career stats only start to make sense after at least 4 or more seasons. But, if the league 'catches on', it will go more then 6 seasons. I think it goes all the way until ATG3 is released. AND you may see other groups of 12 adopt the style and start their own 'career' leagues.
7. Lastly, I would recruit penngrey right away and get him to complete the functionality on www.sportsfantasytools.com to support the limited draft pool and the creation of the supplemental rounds. Plus, there also needs to be a provision for trading players for picks or 1 pick for 2 picks. Again, penngrey's site 'is' designed for this. He just hasn't completed coding it. I've had a few conversations with him about these two functionalities without really spelling out the league theme in detail last summer. He could be energized if approached properly. Believe me, manually tracking the ages of all the players drafted (and undrafted, but remaining in the pool), AND the team salary caps plus the manual creation of the supplemental round orders will be a lot of work. You don't want to have to produce a new spreadsheet every season for all the players in the draft pool plus run the draft manually in a post. Bad juju.
A lot to throw around. Why I think there needs to be a constitution, no democracy, penngrey's site, and having to recruit 11 other GMs.
Am I nuts or what?
- Denorien
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by rschwartz51 » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:45 pm
It seems that recruiting of a couple commissioners would need to be the first step. I know I'm not able to handle the IT management or commission duties. I can be a loyal team member, able to take on tasks that are directed by someone experienced in these tasks.
It may be complex which managers may not be interested in. Myself, I'm looking for a league that can bring meaning to my ATG play as only an ATG3 release seems to likely to do.
It may be complex which managers may not be interested in. Myself, I'm looking for a league that can bring meaning to my ATG play as only an ATG3 release seems to likely to do.
- rschwartz51
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
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