Ya like that one keyzick?
He just popped into my head... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Saw Glanny on "Jim Rome is Burning" today...
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by SteadyEddie33 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:33 pm
[quote:cea5c91109="junkfood johnny"]i dont think we should congratulate him. but, at least, he didnt deny it. my guess is that over fifty percent of the players at the time were juicing. someone should really start lookin into the union and the owners a bit more. seems to me everyone knew what was goin on. it may have been encouraged. either way, i have a feeling its all gonna come pourin out in a few years. conseco wasnt ***********. just cause you didnt hit a ton of homers, doesnt mean you weent juicin.[/quote:cea5c91109]
This is a great point. It still takes learning how to hit the ball in order to produce big numbers. But more to the point, in the Philly area, I think it's fair to say that the early 90s surge of the Phils were led by the newly pumped up Lenny Dykstra, and much buffer Darren Daulton. They had a whole 'Macho Row' in the clubhouse and it's pretty well understood that Dykstra was juicing. He did show more pop in that awesome '93 season, but his added strength was put to better use driving singles and doubles. I absolutely loved watching Lenny back then, but he went from scrawny to relatively thicker in about one offseason. The next year he flirts with .400 for half the year.
If guys like Dykstra were doing that, it just underscores the fact that despite whatever teams or players you love, this is SO much bigger than any handful of guys we want to scapegoat for the steroid/HGH era. We know when the cards got crazy, lol. The Steve Finleys, Edgar Martinez's, the Rusty Greers, Paul Molitors, ..even Pudge Rodriguez's ( :cry: ) of the world, as much as it hurts to suggest it personally, have to be looked at as well. It's NOT just the guys that hit 45-50 hrs (LuGo...a-hem)
How weird is it in retrospect that the Big Hurt Frank Thomas the college football player was never the one putting up OMG type HR totals? He was eclipsed by the newly buffer Bagwells et al
This is a great point. It still takes learning how to hit the ball in order to produce big numbers. But more to the point, in the Philly area, I think it's fair to say that the early 90s surge of the Phils were led by the newly pumped up Lenny Dykstra, and much buffer Darren Daulton. They had a whole 'Macho Row' in the clubhouse and it's pretty well understood that Dykstra was juicing. He did show more pop in that awesome '93 season, but his added strength was put to better use driving singles and doubles. I absolutely loved watching Lenny back then, but he went from scrawny to relatively thicker in about one offseason. The next year he flirts with .400 for half the year.
If guys like Dykstra were doing that, it just underscores the fact that despite whatever teams or players you love, this is SO much bigger than any handful of guys we want to scapegoat for the steroid/HGH era. We know when the cards got crazy, lol. The Steve Finleys, Edgar Martinez's, the Rusty Greers, Paul Molitors, ..even Pudge Rodriguez's ( :cry: ) of the world, as much as it hurts to suggest it personally, have to be looked at as well. It's NOT just the guys that hit 45-50 hrs (LuGo...a-hem)
How weird is it in retrospect that the Big Hurt Frank Thomas the college football player was never the one putting up OMG type HR totals? He was eclipsed by the newly buffer Bagwells et al
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by SteadyEddie33 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:43 pm
[quote:6421c31c9c="socalchiro"]Actually there is a positive test for HGH...a blood test.
....
I mean I saw Sosa play in 1990. He looked like Otis Nixon. A few years later, and it's a middle linebacker running out to RF in Wrigley.[/quote:6421c31c9c]
With ya completely on the blood test. If you're serious and really sorry, you submit to it. If not, well...what's the basis for not doing it? Potential for HIV result becoming public or something?? Paternity?? Put clauses into the agreement so that only one or two kinds of test can be performed and roll up the sleeves.
LOL but c'mon now... Otis' frame could never put on that kind of weight! :lol: Sammy was bigger (broader shoulders etc) than that...
Is the union really risking much at this point? The hall of fame ballots are already going to be considered 'juicy' anyway with very very few exceptions like (hopefully) Griffey, Jr. But honestly, even if my favorite player of this generation does turn up on that list of 104, I won't be completely floored. Highly surprised, stunned and perhaps nauseous...but not completely floored.
....
I mean I saw Sosa play in 1990. He looked like Otis Nixon. A few years later, and it's a middle linebacker running out to RF in Wrigley.[/quote:6421c31c9c]
With ya completely on the blood test. If you're serious and really sorry, you submit to it. If not, well...what's the basis for not doing it? Potential for HIV result becoming public or something?? Paternity?? Put clauses into the agreement so that only one or two kinds of test can be performed and roll up the sleeves.
LOL but c'mon now... Otis' frame could never put on that kind of weight! :lol: Sammy was bigger (broader shoulders etc) than that...
Is the union really risking much at this point? The hall of fame ballots are already going to be considered 'juicy' anyway with very very few exceptions like (hopefully) Griffey, Jr. But honestly, even if my favorite player of this generation does turn up on that list of 104, I won't be completely floored. Highly surprised, stunned and perhaps nauseous...but not completely floored.
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by ArrylT » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:27 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with Jerlins.
And personally, I guess I am never surprised any more when a player is caught, or comes clean. It really is not any different than any other aspect of life. Fact is that people cook their books, find ways to avoid paying taxes, break speed limits, etcetera ...
In the end, the innocence is gone. Baseball is a great game, but it just like anything else in life, it is going to have people who will do whatever it takes to get ahead. What probably hurts people the most is this realization. Not that Bonds or A-Rod or Mr. X was juiced ... but rather that what should have been a game of talent & skill & determination, has been found to be corrupt in yet another way that makes it more like real life, and less like the idealized sport we wanted it to be.
But you cannot expect the big business that sport has become, to not have incorporated many of the same corrupt practices that businesses like WorldCom, Enron and other companies have used (except in baseballs case it is steroids rather than cooked books or illegal dumping of toxic chemicals ... ).
And personally, I guess I am never surprised any more when a player is caught, or comes clean. It really is not any different than any other aspect of life. Fact is that people cook their books, find ways to avoid paying taxes, break speed limits, etcetera ...
In the end, the innocence is gone. Baseball is a great game, but it just like anything else in life, it is going to have people who will do whatever it takes to get ahead. What probably hurts people the most is this realization. Not that Bonds or A-Rod or Mr. X was juiced ... but rather that what should have been a game of talent & skill & determination, has been found to be corrupt in yet another way that makes it more like real life, and less like the idealized sport we wanted it to be.
But you cannot expect the big business that sport has become, to not have incorporated many of the same corrupt practices that businesses like WorldCom, Enron and other companies have used (except in baseballs case it is steroids rather than cooked books or illegal dumping of toxic chemicals ... ).
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by RICHARDMILTER » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:03 am
socalichiro said:[quote:987c92235d]And I couldn't disagree any more with his comments on the ARod situation.
I just don't see how you or anybody else can give the guy kudos for coming clean. Aren't you suppose to?
And if he wasn't outed, would he have come clean and confessed?
Just like many athletes do when they're caught, they apologize. We shouldn't congradulate them.
visick [/quote:987c92235d]
I respectfully disagree with your comments. You are blaming Doug Glanville (who was just trying to be a stand up guy) for giving kudos to A-Roid for something he was suppose to do. If he was supposed to do it, that means he did the right thing. What would you have Glanville say? He is just a guy who played MLB and still loves the game. Do you expect him to go on Rome and bash one of the greatest players he ever played with? And even though A-Roid did what he should have done, that is a hell of a lot better than Roidger Clemens, and Baroid Bonds did! Heck, it is better than what 99.99% of all players did. And who knows what ANY of us would have done in similar circumstances. You can tell me till you are blue in the face that you would never take steroids. But until you have had an agent get you a contract in the mega millions, and had the pressure of the whole league and Country on your back, you can not tell me what you would and would not have done.
Although I have said all that and defended the steroid users, I still despise the era. I am glad HRs were down last season. And stolen bases, fielding, and pitching are BACK! Ty Cobb would be proud, he thought Babe Ruth would ruin he game with homers, but he did not. However, for me at least, the whole steroids era and any records obtained in it are TAINTED! And I am glad to see OLD TIME BASEBALL AGAIN.
I just don't see how you or anybody else can give the guy kudos for coming clean. Aren't you suppose to?
And if he wasn't outed, would he have come clean and confessed?
Just like many athletes do when they're caught, they apologize. We shouldn't congradulate them.
visick [/quote:987c92235d]
I respectfully disagree with your comments. You are blaming Doug Glanville (who was just trying to be a stand up guy) for giving kudos to A-Roid for something he was suppose to do. If he was supposed to do it, that means he did the right thing. What would you have Glanville say? He is just a guy who played MLB and still loves the game. Do you expect him to go on Rome and bash one of the greatest players he ever played with? And even though A-Roid did what he should have done, that is a hell of a lot better than Roidger Clemens, and Baroid Bonds did! Heck, it is better than what 99.99% of all players did. And who knows what ANY of us would have done in similar circumstances. You can tell me till you are blue in the face that you would never take steroids. But until you have had an agent get you a contract in the mega millions, and had the pressure of the whole league and Country on your back, you can not tell me what you would and would not have done.
Although I have said all that and defended the steroid users, I still despise the era. I am glad HRs were down last season. And stolen bases, fielding, and pitching are BACK! Ty Cobb would be proud, he thought Babe Ruth would ruin he game with homers, but he did not. However, for me at least, the whole steroids era and any records obtained in it are TAINTED! And I am glad to see OLD TIME BASEBALL AGAIN.
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by keyzick » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:55 am
True, 99% of us have never been in the situation of where the "pressure" of being a multimillionaire made us choose to do steroids, but everyone can relate to the person who apologizes for something ONLY after he gets caught.
So why would Doug Glanville, or anyone for that matter, say they applaud A-Rod for "coming clean"? If A-Rod had "come clean", he would have volunteered his use back on the 60 Minutes interview last year. But no, he rolled the dice to see if anyone would discover his usage, and once they did with irrefutable evidence, only then did he say "yeah, I did stuff, but didn't know what was illegal back then" (even though he knew the exact time frame he used, why he used, and supposedly stopped as soon as their would be testing).
I don't know exactly what Rome's question was, but I assume it was something along the lines of "what's your take on the A-Rod situation?" So what should Glanny have said? Well, for starters, not "applaud" him. But the only alternative isn't bashing him either. There's a huge range of responses in between the two, that would have sufficed - "It's unfortunate, disgraceful to the game", "Hopefully it truly did end in 2003", etc..
So yeah, congratulations are not in order for any of them. Again, the only guy I can think of that voluntarily outed himself was Jose Canseco. No one congratulated him, just as it should be.
So why would Doug Glanville, or anyone for that matter, say they applaud A-Rod for "coming clean"? If A-Rod had "come clean", he would have volunteered his use back on the 60 Minutes interview last year. But no, he rolled the dice to see if anyone would discover his usage, and once they did with irrefutable evidence, only then did he say "yeah, I did stuff, but didn't know what was illegal back then" (even though he knew the exact time frame he used, why he used, and supposedly stopped as soon as their would be testing).
I don't know exactly what Rome's question was, but I assume it was something along the lines of "what's your take on the A-Rod situation?" So what should Glanny have said? Well, for starters, not "applaud" him. But the only alternative isn't bashing him either. There's a huge range of responses in between the two, that would have sufficed - "It's unfortunate, disgraceful to the game", "Hopefully it truly did end in 2003", etc..
So yeah, congratulations are not in order for any of them. Again, the only guy I can think of that voluntarily outed himself was Jose Canseco. No one congratulated him, just as it should be.
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move on!
by DavidRis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:57 am
Agree with Jerlins 100%!! Who really cares at this point. Are we going to have to hear about every player that used steriods back then for the next 10yrs! Just worry about it from now on, punish offenders that test positive and let's move forward.
Didn't Mark Mcguire have the a bottle of Andro sitting in plain site in his locker during most post-game interviews the year he broke Maris's record?? Doesn't seem to me that anyone including the self-rightous writers cared about it at time. They make me sick acting so betrayed and high n mighty about it now.
I will however admit the record books are a problem.
:roll:
Didn't Mark Mcguire have the a bottle of Andro sitting in plain site in his locker during most post-game interviews the year he broke Maris's record?? Doesn't seem to me that anyone including the self-rightous writers cared about it at time. They make me sick acting so betrayed and high n mighty about it now.
I will however admit the record books are a problem.
:roll:
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by modmark46 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:49 pm
1. I too am sick of it all and don't really care any more.
2. There's a part of me that feels sorry for the guys getting crucified now, like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, etc. We cheered them mightily, and they thrilled millions with their exploits. Now many want to burn them at the stake. If you can't punish/identify them all, how is it fair to make these once revered icons the scapegoats/public faces of the Steroid Era?
3. Owners, managers, coaches, agents, Union leaders, the Commish; they HAD to know it was going on. I feel they encouraged it, either openly or by turning a blind eye, because it was good for business. Why aren't they vilified?
4. And yeah, cheating in various forms has probably been employed since men started getting paid to play the game back in the 1800s. Doesn't make it right, but we should keep things in perspective. I remember watching an excellent documentary a few years ago about Hank Greenberg (The Life and Times of Hank Greenberg). In an interview before he passed away, he mentioned how the coaches/mgmt figured out a way to steal signs by having a guy with binoculars out in the OF stands, then quickly relay to the Tigers dugout via radio, and a quick hand signal was then flashed to the batter, indicating if a fastball or breaking pitch was coming. I don't remember the particulars exactly, but I think it was in one of the WS games vs the Reds?, whenever that was. I think it was the late 30's? Anyway, Hank chuckled and said something like, if a big league hitter KNOWS that the pitch coming either is or isn't a fastball, it makes all the difference in the world. They got a bunch of hits that day and easily won the game. I think Hank said he hit a HR off of an off speed pitch he knew was coming. The other club got wind of it, and the commish had agents out in the bleachers the next game looking for the spy, but the Tigers got wise to the plan and didn't do it again. Hank didn't sound guilty in the least, it was just a fond memory. Granted, he didn't initiate the scheme, mgmt did, but he benefited, along with the other Tiger hitters. I'm not picking on Hank btw, he's one of my all time favorite players. It was just so revealing to hear him openly admit that this had happened. He indicated that kind of stuff went on all the time, and always had in some form or another.
The little boy in me wishes the game was played for the sheer love of it, in it's purest way. The middle aged adult cynic that I am knows that probably hasn't ever happened beyond LL. I still love and watch the game. Just wish I could still play it. :(
2. There's a part of me that feels sorry for the guys getting crucified now, like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, etc. We cheered them mightily, and they thrilled millions with their exploits. Now many want to burn them at the stake. If you can't punish/identify them all, how is it fair to make these once revered icons the scapegoats/public faces of the Steroid Era?
3. Owners, managers, coaches, agents, Union leaders, the Commish; they HAD to know it was going on. I feel they encouraged it, either openly or by turning a blind eye, because it was good for business. Why aren't they vilified?
4. And yeah, cheating in various forms has probably been employed since men started getting paid to play the game back in the 1800s. Doesn't make it right, but we should keep things in perspective. I remember watching an excellent documentary a few years ago about Hank Greenberg (The Life and Times of Hank Greenberg). In an interview before he passed away, he mentioned how the coaches/mgmt figured out a way to steal signs by having a guy with binoculars out in the OF stands, then quickly relay to the Tigers dugout via radio, and a quick hand signal was then flashed to the batter, indicating if a fastball or breaking pitch was coming. I don't remember the particulars exactly, but I think it was in one of the WS games vs the Reds?, whenever that was. I think it was the late 30's? Anyway, Hank chuckled and said something like, if a big league hitter KNOWS that the pitch coming either is or isn't a fastball, it makes all the difference in the world. They got a bunch of hits that day and easily won the game. I think Hank said he hit a HR off of an off speed pitch he knew was coming. The other club got wind of it, and the commish had agents out in the bleachers the next game looking for the spy, but the Tigers got wise to the plan and didn't do it again. Hank didn't sound guilty in the least, it was just a fond memory. Granted, he didn't initiate the scheme, mgmt did, but he benefited, along with the other Tiger hitters. I'm not picking on Hank btw, he's one of my all time favorite players. It was just so revealing to hear him openly admit that this had happened. He indicated that kind of stuff went on all the time, and always had in some form or another.
The little boy in me wishes the game was played for the sheer love of it, in it's purest way. The middle aged adult cynic that I am knows that probably hasn't ever happened beyond LL. I still love and watch the game. Just wish I could still play it. :(
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