New 24-team keeper league

[calbatross]

[quote:1889c5e09c="rburgh"]1. How can you get screwed out of something you never had?

2. The drop feature is a convenience for proxy users. Proxies speed up the draft. Based on the pace so far, I think that should be priority #1.[/quote:1889c5e09c]

Think it thru. Say u draft verlander and i draft later and had verlander first on my proxy list. U decide to drop verlander and verlander is still in the player pool when my pick comes up. My proxy will not select verlander even though i had him in my proxy list because when u drafted verlander, he was removed from my proxy list. So even tho verlander is in the available player pool when i draft, i would get my second choice ... Because your mistake messed up my proxy list...and any other proxy lists that had verlander. Think it through. The drop feature is a convenience, but it is flawed and i am not comfortable with it in a dynasty league especially. Once one domino falls, it can lead to a huge mess. I wouldnt bring this up if i hadnt been burned before.

[rburgh]

1. You lost Verlander as soon as I drafted him. Suppose, under your proposed restriction, I am forced to keep him and trade him. How have you gained?

If you think you have lost the opportunity to trade me something for him, you have gained the opportunity to trade someone else something for him. I still fail to see how you have lost anything.

2. Playing on a site like this requires you to find a balance between competitiveness and sociability. So far, it appears that you have drawn your line in a place that I am not comfortable with.

[rburgh]

Once the clock turns on, if you have exceeded your time limit then the next player may pick (but not by proxy). If, however, the next player picks, further picks may proceed by proxy.

Normally, they turn the DD clock of at about midnight eastern time and turn it back on early in the morning.

You can go to sleep at night, but best not to sack out during the day if you have a pick coming.

[travelingjack]

Turtle will have final say on this- a possible compromise would be to allow drops but they have to be approved by Turtle and would not take effect until the draft gets back to the person picking after the owner dropping the player. That way everyone would have the same chance to draft a dropped player as they would have if not using proxy's (assuming they check in by the next round). This would be cumbersome but I think it would work. Opinions?

Btw, with 24 owners we simply have to use proxy's, otherwise we won't finish until Xmas (2012).

[calbatross]

rburgh, I can't believe that this situation is that hard to understand. I'll try to explain it with a more detailed example.

Let's assume a draft order of you, me, Ted. Our proxies are loaded up as follows:
You:
1. Verlander
2: Pedroia

Me:
1. Verlander
2. Cano
3. McCutcheon

Ted:
1. Verlander
2. Cano
3. Pujols

Since we all have proxies loaded and turned on, the draft choices are as follows:

You: Verlander
Me: Cano
Ted: Pujols

But... after you see who you got, you determine that you made some sort of mistake and didn't actually want Verlander, so you request a drop, which is approved.

I have Cano, Ted has Pujols, but either one of us preferred a chance at Verlander. Poor Ted was denied his top TWO choices because of this error. Now Verlander slips past us and neither Ted nor I get a chance to draft a player (or players) who we really wanted most. Once you selected Verlander, Verlander came off of any proxy lists that might have contained him. Diamond Dope doesn't restore Verlander to everyone's proxy lists once your drop is approved. Anyone hoo picks afeter you is at a disadvantage.

In my last league, what happened was that one team owner with admin privileges drafted a player, but then dropped the player (approving the drop himself) and picked up a different player, then dropped that player to pick up yet another player. Each time he did this, the proxy lists of everyone after him were inadvertently, permanently altered to remove any player this guy selected... toward the end of an AL-only draft where the pickings were getting kind of slim, this was huge! The guy didn't fully understand the consequences of his actions.

I don't want to slow the draft down and now that we are rolling you will see I am one of the more conscientious/considerate drafters on here and will help speed things along by messaging others, etc. However, if we allow approved drops, I will refuse to use proxies.

[b:e1caa4be65]Best solution = don't put yourself in a position to make an inadvertent mistake![/b:e1caa4be65] Mistakes involving inadvertently selecting the wrong player seem to only happen when a person is making or modifying proxy lists while their proxies are turned on. [b:e1caa4be65]If y'all turn off proxies, then edit your proxy lists, then turn your proxies back on, you eliminate the risk of your proxy accidentally unexpectedly firing when the draft decides to move along again.[/b:e1caa4be65]

At $20-$25 per team in a 24 team dynasty league, I don't want to waste my money without some kind of protection from irresponsible drafters. Barring some kind of catastrophy, I firmly believe the rule should be that if you draft a player, he is yours. If we don't have a rule like that, that's fine, I won't fight it any more as long as everyone else is ok with it. But, I will not use proxies...and if a player drafting before me drops a player that I would have selected soon after by proxy, I will want a fair shot at that player (but someone would have to explain to me how that would work... one domino can cause exponential proxy list and draft strategy damage).

So, to answer your questions,
1. In the situation that you selected Verlander and then dropped him, I lost the opportunity to draft Verlander. With the restriction, how I have gained is that you have not been allowed to inadvertently dictate my draft due to your irresponsibility.
2. I really have no idea what you are getting at with this question. While I am firm in my feelings on this subject, the commish needs to rule on this. [b:e1caa4be65]What it boils down to simply is that if drops are allowed, I will not use proxies and the draft will take a few more hours/days to complete. If drops are disallowed, I will aggressively use proxies and the draft will move along that much faster. [/b:e1caa4be65]

There is a financial commitment and a significant time commitment to a league like this; all team owners deserve to have as fair and pleasant of an experience as possible. I want to get a decision on this before there is a problem. It would suck for my scenario above to play out in the middle of the draft and to lose someone because they felt f'd over. With 24 teams, that player pool is gonna get mighty thin mighty fast.

Honestly, I am an easy going guy and get along with everyone. But after getting screwed in the last draft, I am still feeling a little stung and want to get a preemptive ruling on player drops during the draft. :D

[travelingjack]

[quote:436dba08d2="blackjack57"]Turtle will have final say on this- a possible compromise would be to allow drops but they have to be approved by Turtle and would not take effect until the draft gets back to the person picking after the owner dropping the player. That way everyone would have the same chance to draft a dropped player as they would have if not using proxy's (assuming they check in by the next round). This would be cumbersome but I think it would work. Opinions?

Btw, with 24 owners we simply have to use proxy's, otherwise we won't finish until Xmas (2012).[/quote:436dba08d2]

An additional option would be to make all dropped players ineligble until the end of the draft and then have a supplemental draft of dropped players- of course figuring out the order might be controversial.

Rburgh and Calbatross both have valid points, I think though that until Turtle rules on this the debate should be about options and not get personal. 8-)

[rburgh]

Yes, you are making my point. You lost your chance to draft Verlander whether or not I actually wanted him. So what you two guys are saying is that you want the draft to work out perfectly FOR YOU, and to hell with the rest of us.

If that's your take on life, I feel sorry for you. Life isn't perfect, or fair.

I laugh at the guys on this site who cry and whine every time HAL makes a boneheaded move with their team. They conveniently ignore all the times HAL makes a boneheaded move for their opponent that helps them. It all evens out in the wash.

Chill.

[travelingjack]

I stated that Turtle would make the final call and then threw out a couple of options we might use, did not even state my preference as to whether we use drops or not. I'm just looking for solutions while trying not make this personal, unless you have another option you've both stated your opinions, let's drop this until Turtle rules.

[fredpaii]

[quote:1c9474936c="rburgh"]Once the clock turns on, if you have exceeded your time limit then the next player may pick (but not by proxy). If, however, the next player picks, further picks may proceed by proxy.

Normally, they turn the DD clock of at about midnight eastern time and turn it back on early in the morning.

You can go to sleep at night, but best not to sack out during the day if you have a pick coming.[/quote:1c9474936c]

Thank you.

[calbatross]

[quote:b13db13db6="rburgh"]Yes, you are making my point. You lost your chance to draft Verlander whether or not I actually wanted him. So what you two guys are saying is that you want the draft to work out perfectly FOR YOU, and to hell with the rest of us.

If that's your take on life, I feel sorry for you. Life isn't perfect, or fair.

I laugh at the guys on this site who cry and whine every time HAL makes a boneheaded move with their team. They conveniently ignore all the times HAL makes a boneheaded move for their opponent that helps them. It all evens out in the wash.

Chill.[/quote:b13db13db6]

OMG, chill yourself. 8-) I still think you don't understand the havoc that can be wreaked by a drop. Maybe you have to experience it for yourself to understand it.

I am sorry if I struck a nerve, especially since I am talking about a hypothetical situation that may not even occur. I don't intend for anything to be personal...I want the draft to work out perfectly for everybody. I see a flaw in the system and want to discuss it before problems occur.

I don't see how a no-drop rule puts anybody at any kind of disadvantage. Draft carefully and turn off proxies while setting them up to avoid unwanted picks. Simple. Unfortunately, though, allowing drops may have serious unintended results. I understand it's just a game, but again, I am committing several game fees, hours, and years to this league and this group and if we can't agree to be fair with each other, then it's not going to be an enjoyable experience.

I think we should all draft carefully to make sure none of us puts ourselves in a position that we need to request a drop. But a dynasty league draft that gets screwed up because of events you have no control over seems to me a little more of a big deal than HAL pulling your closer early in a game.

Please, rburgh, understand I have no selfish intention here. I am looking out for everyone by bringing up this scenario. By being thorough, I am trying to help you understand how allowing drops can create a preventable problem.

I have been in leagues with Turtle for 4 or 5 years now and he can attest to the fact that I don't try and 'stir things up' and rarely complain about anything, if ever. If I didn't think that allowing drops created a serious flaw in proxy logic on Diamond Dope, I wouldn't say anything.

[b:b13db13db6]The ruling on this scenario is not going to affect things that much...all it is going to do is decide whether or not I* use proxies and therefore, how fast this draft gets completed. [/b:b13db13db6] If you all are ok with allowing drops, fine! I'm ok with that. :D I just want everyone to understand this complex situation based on my experience and, if we allow drops for mistakes, be aware that your proxies may be messed up inadvertently.

*(or any other drafter concerned about dropped players messing up their proxies)

If you have a personal problem with me because of this, I have no problem bowing out to a replacement wants to build a team around Pedroia. Sorry if this discussion thread has disappointed anyone. I am now, officially, chilled.