Whats the Deal with Speaker?

[JohnnyBlazers]

He has two cards, 1912 & 1920:

MLB Stats
Yr Tm G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS BAL PRICE
1912 BOS 153 580 136 222 53 12 10 90 82 0 52 0 .383 .464 .567 1.031 E 13.41M

Yr Tm G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS BAL PRICE
1920 CLE 150 552 137 214 50 11 8 107 97 13 10 13 .388 .483 .562 1.045 E 10.26M

Why is he 3 million more on the 1912 Card when his OPS for 1920 is actually higher? Hes a 1 CF on both though 1912 his arm is stronger. Checked in Diamond Dope and it rates the 1912 as decidedly better in terms of SLG, but if you look at the seasons, his Slg% is only .05 lower for 1920. I always though that 13 m card was overpriced - what gives?

[Stormcrow2012]

I think your point is right on the money. The only thing I can see better about the more expensive card is that he can steal bases.

[sschu]

Maybe take a look at the card values ....

[Paul_Long71]

1912 card has more power (3b/HR) look at Diamond Dope Card Reader. I would compare them using a neutral park then look at various styles of parks (hitters/pitchers/lefty park etc...) Also has good stealing numbers whereas the 1920 card I would set on don't steal. And of course the -4 arm and lower e rating helps with fielding.

hope this helps some.....still don't know if it's 3M better, but at least it gives a good explanation.

[The Last Druid]

If you look at the actuals on DD the higher priced card consistently outhits the lower priced card on avg. alone.

The lower priced card used to be the only Speaker. He consistently did not hit well for me back then. A huge disappointment. No longer use that card.

Here is the very first team that I ever had at TSN. Liked the team. Not real happy with Speaker in Dunn. Just a bad first impression? No, this was a typical ATG II Speaker performance for me.

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/atg2/team/team_other.html?user_id=31478

The current 13 M Speaker does just fine at all caps. He's .520 at 200M per DD. Better than the guys in his price range at that cap, and I don't think small ball teams work very well at that cap, at least for me.

A 1(-4) vs 1 (1-) arm in CF is a big deal, especially since he will usually be on small ball teams. The base stealing thing is a huge difference also.

Here's a current team with Speaker at 80M. I can't say I'm unhappy with his performance, which even with the lofty price tag, is still worth it --at least on this team. How he's managed to hit 17 taters in Forbes so far, well that's kind of a mystery to me.

But I do think he should be priced around 12M.

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/stratomatic/team/team_other.html?user_id=356199

[The Last Druid]

Dug up some more ATG II Speaker teams. This is my second team ever with Speaker on it

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/atg2/team/team_other.html?user_id=32350

The 3rd.

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/atg2/team/team_other.html?user_id=42008

The 4th

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/atg2/team/team_other.html?user_id=43509

Around then I concluded that he just sucked. Even at 9.06 M.

Still used him though. Not many small ball choices back then.

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/atg2/team/team_other.html?user_id=45592

[nels52]

Ah the old CLE Speaker card.

We used to use that card all the time but then they added his 1912 AA card. Then for a while that overtook his CLE card the hot card in small-ball. Then because it was SO popular TSN jacked his price up from 12.45 to the overpriced level it's at today. Honesty, I practically forgot about his slower card and am starting to remember why it was so good.

Idk how you can say the 1920 card sucks Petro. Each team you showed had a good record which was Speaker's calling card.

Oh and I really miss the 2.59 Donnie Bush :lol:

[The Last Druid]

I feel like a .388 hitter should do better than hit around .320 at 80M in favorable parks. Never could figure out why that card hit so poorly and the newer card so well, despite the .383 avg.

This one, not that much later than the previous bunch really got me. .288?? come on. He sucked. Even got outhit by Heathcote and Schoendienst.

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/atg2/team/team_other.html?user_id=44115

[The Biomechanical Man]

[quote:c418a43fe5="johnnyblazers"]He has two cards, 1912 & 1920:

MLB Stats
Yr Tm G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS BAL PRICE
1912 BOS 153 580 136 222 53 12 10 90 82 0 52 0 .383 .464 .567 1.031 E 13.41M

Yr Tm G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS BAL PRICE
1920 CLE 150 552 137 214 50 11 8 107 97 13 10 13 .388 .483 .562 1.045 E 10.26M

Why is he 3 million more on the 1912 Card when his OPS for 1920 is actually higher?... if you look at the seasons, his Slg% is only .05 lower for 1920.[/quote:c418a43fe5]

Johnnyblazers,

The [i:c418a43fe5]real-life[/i:c418a43fe5] stats are irrelevant for how a card plays and therefore what it's worth in our game. The only thing that matters is [i:c418a43fe5]what's on the card[/i:c418a43fe5] (such hitting as shown on DiamondDope card reader, fielding ratings, baserunning and stealing ratings, etc.).

[PotKettleBlack]

Context, context context.

Speaker 1912 had a park adjusted OPS+ of 188.
Speaker 1920 - 172.

1912 had a dWar of +1 (really good)
1920 - +.3 (Not as, but still pretty good)

His errors were further from the norm in 12 than 20.
Obviously, better on the basepaths.

$3M better is a function of both what's on the card AND revaluation to rebalance use from ATG4-5-6. Definitely 2M better.